Namaste! I have a guest that you all know about. Vivek Agnihotri, an important filmmaker from India and an activist. Welcome Vivek! Thank you, thank you Rajivji. It’s a delight to be here. Thanks for your invitation. You know, I also wanted your wife, Pallavi Joshi to be here so it would be a three-way thing, but maybe next time she must come. Ya sure. Actually, Pallavi is a fan of yours and she is the one, let me tell you the secret, She is the one, when the book arrived at my home, Breaking India, which is here. She was the first one to read few chapters. And she said, Vivek have you read this book? So, when I told her that Rajivji has invited, she was so excited but somewhere we got lost in translation So, I am sorry, next time she will come. So, Pallavi, this is a formal invitation to you. You have to come next time. and you guys have to stay here and we can then do a lot of more conversation and discussion, thinking about what’s happening in India. Thanks, thanks! So, since our conversation a few months ago, which was, by the way, a very big hit. And the discussion lot of people loved the story of what you are all about. So, since then what are some of the new things you are doing? – Rajivji, after the film…it was just a film and I thought my job is over. About raising awareness about naxal, barbarian, barbarian ways of…but then I realised that somewhere in a very organized fashion media started discrediting me. More awards we got. Like after the interview I did with you. Then they started trolling me. Every time people recognize your work they start to discredit you. And then I said if they are doing this, somebody has to fight it out. So, I sent a team of boys and I invested in that. And we made a documentary in Bastar. – For audience benefit, where is Bastar? Bastar is in Madhya Pradesh, the red corridor. Bastar is a place where in thousands of years, no development has reached there. Can you imagine, they don’t have mobile phones, no modern development, they do not let people build roads. And the so-called activists, the urban Naxals, who I call them urban naxals, people who fight for this cause, but they are also fighting development at the same time. And that’s where I think the whole confusion. So I have sent these people and I have produced a documentary and so many stories have come out, ex naxals people who were in naxals have come out, the women who are tortured, I don’t want to use, but who actually were, they were robbed of their dignity, And all those stories have come and these are gut wrenching and it has given me a purpose and a mission and so, at urban level I am fighting them individually. On the other hand, I want these documentaries and these things to come out so that people know exactly what is happening there. I wanted to understand more deeply what was happening. And my idea was to speak to naxal people who are actually on the field killing people and ex naxal people who actually joined and realised ki it’s not worth it and they came back. And the political active…so, across section and also the cops, the police, which is working day and night and getting killed. And what we analysed was that these people See, you have to understand media, when we say media, we generally think English media. But there is lot of regional media which is doing very good job. And I asked my boys you send me all the cuttings of newspapers, every single day, shoot them and send them to me, whatever news is there. And Rajivji you can’t believe it that the news we read in English, the news we read in Hindi are two different things. Absolutely different things. About two different worlds. Two different worlds. Bharat and India, but unfortunately the problem is with Google. When you Google, no Hindi report comes. All you read is all these westernized. And that’s why we need to have our own Swadeshi Google. Of course. Like China has. Ya. I mean that’s a huge thing I keep talking about it, but that’s another conversation we should have some time. ya, ya. Continue please. So, whenever I try to do something, I raise my voice against these people, There is bunch of 5, 6, 7, 8 people who are journalists, activists, or whatever or communist leading people, they come after you, they mob lynch you, they absolutely mob lynch you and they try to discredit you. But, like you I am also inspired. So, more they fight me, more I want to do these kind of things. So, once this documentary comes out let me warn everybody, it’s really very good to reveal so many things which India never heard about. So, tell us sample scene that you think are quite outrageous. First of all, every time the news comes that naxal people have killed somebody or they have killed some CRPF jawans. And people say, oh! 50 people have been killed or sometimes they say okay. I mean when 2, 3, 4 people are killed nobody cares about. But nobody is telling us. Nowhere in English media you will find they tell you how they killed them. I will tell you how they kill them. When all these politicians of congress party were shot Vidyacharan Shukla and all these people, the entire congress group was shot by them. What they did, and recently the CRPF jawans. What they do is first they attack them, disable them, Then they cut their organs while they are alive. They cut their bodies, take the liver and the different parts of the body they take out literally with their hands. When the guy is alive? Guys are alive! They just disabled them, broken their legs or something. After that they just open the fire and they shoot them 50 and 100 rounds of bullets and then they get the hammer and then they break their skull and everything. And after that they sit around and sing and dance. Almost like cannibalistic, almost everybody is barbaric. Pervert, I mean this is inhuman. So, this is, and the strange thing is that these are the people who are championing human rights against Hindus. That’s where I see the biggest…there is an opportunity there. You have to really show that this is, these are the barbaric people, Going around the world, selling their services, as you know, they were policemen keeping the human rights of Indians and exposing atrocity literature. This is the worst kind of atrocity literature we ought to be developing. Ya, and that’s why I said I will create this literature in visual form. And I have these people on record saying. I have so many ex-naxals saying these kind of things. And one thing I had… When is the footage going to be available publicly? I think in next couple of months of our post production work gets over. Let me know because we would like to popularize it. Let people know this is what’s going on. Thanks, thanks for your help because this needs to be…see what is, the problem is that what is happening in Bastar not anybody knows about it because they do not. What is the filtering process? There are people at every stage. Something happens in Bastar, Bastar just for the audience I will tell you is in Chhattisgarh. By the time the news comes to Raipur, which is the capital, which comes in Hindi. Then it comes to Bhopal. Now, English newspapers start taking it over from here. And they start filtering, they just, they don’t tell you how it is happening, what is happening. Like a small one-year-old child they got a hammer opened up the skull of the child in front of the parents. It’s so barbarian, I mean it’s gut wrenching. Have you ever, I challenge you will never ever read about this in… right. The fact that it is happening is horrible. The fact that it is being censored and not reported is worse. The fact that the people who are doing it and those who are behind it are even championed as human rights advocates. And they never talk about the human rights of police. They also have human rights, just because they are CRPF doesn’t mean they don’t have human. Recently those 56 people were killed just one and half month ago, and when I wrote how they were killed exactly And I put up video also when people where people have said how it was done. Then these 3 – 4 ladies they came after my life and they started attacking me, abusing me to an extent a normal person will get scared and will back off. So, do you feel that we have weakness in Hindu society that we don’t have to face horrible things happening to us. We want to look it like, sab theek hi hai. Koi baat nahin. We want to sort of downplay the atrocities we are facing. Sharam aati hai. Bilkul. See, Hindu pride, let me tell you, I am a proud Hindu and I am a son of freedom, both my mother and father were freedom fighters so, I am a very proud Indian also. But whenever in last 10, 15, 20 years I have seen anybody wanted to talk about Hindu cause or Hindu pride, he was made to feel so regressive as if he is doing, it’s a crime. So, you are the champion, you took, you had the courage, you did it. But an ordinary boy and girl who has just graduated, is fighting for survival, those people back off thinking these are intellectual people, maybe they will know better. They have created that kind of environment. There is insecurity. So, I will tell you since you talked about me. I will tell you the courage comes from having been successful in their world, ruled, bossed over them By that I mean modern, westernize Indian looks up to the Americans as a sort of role model of success maybe we will become like them, maybe they will endorse them, but I have hundreds of such Americans working for me. So, I am the boss, their boss, I can hire them, fire them, throw them out, have market share from them, defeat them in their own game. Having done that at a very early age, I had, there is no reason for inferiority complex. Winning with them. True. So, I think we need the people who are very successful in the corporate world, some of the big shots today. They need to take early retirement and invest in this. That is what we need. We need more people who are willing to let go of the rat race after being successful because they have nothing to fear. They have nothing, they don’t want anything further, they should get into this. That’s a very unique way of putting it and I really admire, absolutely, I am, ya, I think people who have some influence and power, they are shying away from using that influence There, they are almost like, I know people who have huge amounts of wealth, power, success, everything. For them a small investment, a small percentage investment in what we are doing would make a big impact. They are afraid of being associated, even though they have they really want nothing else in life, they have got everything. Ya. You know, but somehow they have this inferiority complex maybe or this fear of something may go wrong. So, chhup ke baat karenge ki haan apse milna theek hai, you know, you must be facing, ya, off the camera they talk, but you know, ye baat daal na dein. Don’t put it on. It happens with you so often. On social media they will create a facade and they will play to that and when they meet you independently can they say something else. Right. So, the same secular people who say ki I don’t believe in Hindutva and this and that. I won’t like to name but somebody who is in journalism and the so-called intellectual of the society And so, this gentleman has been writing a lot against the new government and about the cow politics. And he was making Hindus look like some very regressive people And he writes for international media also and I happened to meet him in a private party. And after some time, we were standing in the corner I told him do you know that this, the cow thing is not a Hindu thing alone. Because it’s a very cultural thing. In this UP, Bihar and this entire belt even Muslims look after, and he said how do you know. So, I quoted my example, I come from a village My father, actually we, I come from a village, there is no electricity, there is no drinking water, no nothing, no roads. When my father died recently, so I had to call some properties and all, And I realized that all these cows which have been like over 7, 8, 10 generations, all these 15 – 20 cows are being looked after by the julahas, the weavers and weavers are always Muslims. So, Muslim family looks after them, treat them like their own children. So, this myth that all Muslims eat beef and all Hindus are against it, I think this was all created and he admitted to me Then he said, 90% of the news you read about cow actually we know nothing about it. But we have some set narrative and we just keep propagating that. So, this is the hypocrisy of these people. Privately different than publicly… absolutely haan. So, you mentioned that there are some of the people who, you mentioned 3 – 4 women earlier, who are some of these people? Can you name some? See I am an upfront guy and I don’t, see I will tell you what, recently I, when I wrote about naxal issue, then this advocate of naxal issue Kavita Krishnan, she came after my life. And Shehla Rashid, she was president of JNU Student union. And these 2 – 3 ladies, I actually in a very humorous way and without meaning anything I called Lutyens women’s WhatsApp group. Because I get a feeling that one Kavita Krishnan says something and all these 5 – 10 women they come after my life and they say, they are leftists. Okay. If they are leftist or rightist doesn’t matter. When 56 people’s bodies is cut, open and this- Kavita is a, Kavita Krishnan is a Naxalite? Of course! She is an urban naxal. She is an urban naxal. She doesn’t go to villages. And you know I have seen her outright lying. Outright lying. I mean and also a very vicious kind of a, not a dignified opponent. I like debating with dignified opponents who are, there is some flexibility, there is give and take, there is nothing personal viciousness. It’s just that you ideologically you may disagree with each other, but you can also be decent to each other and respect each other. I don’t see that. I see a meanness. I totally, I would second that. Because I don’t know them personally but I know them social media, they, what they try to do is, they’ll dis… I know the strategy. First, they will discredit you, they will try to ridicule you. Then they will all these, they have a very strong network. That’s how leftists work. They have a very strong network. All these people will come after you and slowly they will shift the goal post. And I don’t know if it’s happened with you but almost everybody then they will convert into men versus women argument. In a man versus woman argument on social media whatever you say, all they will gang up and they will look like that you are anti-women person. Because they have no logic, no rationale why they are doing. Actually, they are a disgrace to women’s cause because women are very intelligent. You see, I worked in corporate life in my technology entrepreneurship in the US, Which is more than 50% women and they are highly accomplished, they are the bosses, most of the… when I became a management consultant most of my clients were women. So, I have a tremendous respect for very accomplished women. My mother who is now 92 is a doctor. So, she is a very assertive woman. I was raised in a home with women being empowered. Her mother who lived to be a hundred was a freedom fighter, exceedingly strong person. So, it’s not that we are, we don’t have… of course. I mean the point is that they have the stereotyped this space. Ya. And kind of feminised causes which have nothing to do. No, but at that level, at feminism level I had with Kavita Krishnan and her ilk and I had very big fight with them, and it’s a ideological, intellectual fight. So, anybody you see who understand Hinduism will always look at a woman, as shakti. But these people they create a narrative that woman is sati and that’s where my conflict with these feminists and all these people is. I think they have damaged the cause of feminism more in India than strengthening it. – It’s victimhood business. -Ya, victimhood and other things is they do not want the strength of Hinduism to come Because the minute you say, we respect women and we have respected. Ek main aapko, ek main apko example batata hun. There was a statue of Sarasvati which was given to my parents when I was a little child. And I grew up watching that Sarasvati’s statue. She had no clothes on. Sarasvati, she had a very sheer, just a sheer, what you call a chunni kind of a thing. But almost transparent, no clothes on her. My father was a great Vedic Sanskrit scholar. When I grew up I asked him. She is a devi, how come she has nothing on her. He said because she represents wisdom, knowledge all those things. She has to be transparent. Hmm, very good. That’s a Hindu thought. And if you see, Sarasvati has always been depicted like that. Transparent, very less clothes. Now, they, then JNU what is happening. What they are trying to do is that all these metaphors which very beautifully have been used by Hindu philosophers, they are trying to discredit them. Distort them, give them a different meaning, twist them around. And for them Hinduism begins when the Islamic invasion happened. So, they pick up Hindu history from when the Islamic invasion. Sati, parda, ghunghat, dahej, all these things they pick up the negatives and that’s where I think Kavita Krishnan kind of people have done more damage to feminism, feminist call. Look at our mothers. For last one month I am travelling everywhere in US and I ask this Facebook, Google wherever I go ask these people, That what is the reason that you are respected wherever you go in the world. Indian boys and girls. I said, where are these values coming from. These values are coming from your mother. Right. Give her some credit. This woman has sacrificed everything and she has built these living, walking people who represent great values of sacrifice, compassion, adjustment, acceptance. And that’s why you see wherever you go people respect Indians. So, but they won’t like to give credit to their mothers. So, this is a sell out to the western model. Oh yeah. I mean, this is what it is. So, what are the Kavita Krishnan type people doing now? As Naxalites what’s their projects? What they are trying to do is, somewhere because people like me, we raise lot of voice through the film, people started writing, what, so, people have started looking at naxal problem as a genuine problem. I am talking about common citizens., what they have, they said, they thought they are losing the battle. The battle of narrative. So, they are trying to equate it with Kashmir problem. You know, what will happen with the Kashmir problem, the naxal issue will come in the limelight, all the western media will say, aha, there is something like Kashmir, let’s pick it up. Then they will make it slowly into a Hindu versus advisasi problem. Their strategy is to create a Islamic, dalit corridor. Right. You know, break Dalits away from Hindus, Dalits are Hindus. Islamic Maoists. Islamic Maoists that’s what they are trying to create. I was talking to I G Kalluri. If you go to Bastar area, he is the real hero. When he was there for 2 – 3 years as IG, he is a guy who doesn’t wait for anybody. He takes his gun he runs after naxals. And he has done some amazing things. All these women came after him. And it’s a very interesting story. See how narratives are created. These Nalini Sunder you know, Nandini Sunder. She married to this western journalist and they have been, so, she is been charged with murder charges, she has got murder charges against her. And all due to I G Kalluri because he was not scared of all these English speaking women coming from Lutyens and doing that. So, he told me so much of Chinese money is coming from one side and lot of Islamic funding is coming from one side. And both these funding come and merge somewhere. So, they are trying to create a Islamic block, outside of Kashmir. And what can be a better place than Bastar, which is disturbed. So, you shift the entire narrative, because of failed narrative, because people say you know people All the activists your naxals killed innocent people, so, they are not fighting for any cause. So, what they will do is, they will say like Kashmir, if you saw recently they are saying say why don’t you use pellet guns everywhere else? You don’t have to use pellet guns, the forces are using real guns. So, that is what they are trying to create a narrative at international level that like Kashmir human rights have been violated. So, let me just tell you, this book, Breaking India discusses this whole thing. The Breaking India has three foreign interventions. There is the Christian, Aryan Dravidian drive very strongly in the South, Nagaland, few places like that, converting them and changing their loyalty. Their narrative becomes western narrative. And India has harmed them. That kind of a thing. And you are poor because your ancestors were oppressed by other Indians. Could be the Aryans oppressed you, whatever. Then comes the Islamic narrative that is comes from Pakistan, the ISI now ISIS and all these people. Kashmir is not the only place. It is just the hottest place for that. Then there is the Maoist narrative. China is funding that and I have talked about it in detail. Funding in Nepal, funding in Bhutan, funding in the Northern belt of India. So, how these come together is explained here. Which year did you write this? This, well, the book came out in 2011, but this narrative I have written presented like Indian Institute of Science I presented this narrative about making India, 2001. I have been writing about this for 15 – 16 years, blogs about it and lectures about it and so on. Now what I… you saw it in 2001. Yes, because I saw this map of breaking India was in the office of a professor who came from India and very nicely told me that he is part of this Afro-Dalit project and he is going to India to explain to them that they are the Dalits are really the Africans. And the non-Dalits are the whites who have oppressed them and made slaves out of them. That was his narrative. Why he is got there. Under the, under human empowerment, youth empowerment, all these NGOs. So, from there I started tracking. I started tracking where the money leads and he gave me lot of leads, he was a very innocent fellow. He gave me lot of leads about who funds what. So, I looked at all their projects. Then I started looking at Kashmir separatist project here in United States, Khalistani projects here in United States and Canada And I have started tracking their flow of money, flow of ideology. And how they take young Indians who are ideologically leftists and how they take young Indians who are ideologically leftists and give them kind of a hatred for the kind of ancestral, hatred for India and the Hindu faith. And then they get trained. So, this whole business of channelling some of them into Maoism and Naxalites, some of them become Muslim radicals, some of them become Christian type people. They have a common enemy. The common enemy is India, Bharat, Hinduism. That is the common enemy and here, Breaking India is like you know many predators eating the elephant little bit by little bit. Somebody, you can’t just swallow this big elephant. So, somebody catches hold of this part, somebody catches hold of that part. Ultimately if they were to succeed and getting killed this elephant, if they were to Then they fight each other. This is the strange thing. You know the story of civilization, I look at the whole history of civilization. Why is this Middle east problem? Why is there clash of civilization between Islam and Christianity? And Islam and Judaism? Because before these people came they were the so-called pagans. Ya, I know. Ya, they were for a long time. so, at first, they had enough turf to eat those guys. So, the Muslim eating is the pre-Islamic people who were very Vedic like in some ways. The Christians doing it, you know. So, they are all doing it in different territories. So, once they finish those guys off, then they have to go after each other. This is what happens to the predators. When all the food supply is gone, then the predators kill each other. So, the clash of civilizations could happen in India. The whole clash of all these global nexuses can happen in India. Right now, they are in a collaboration against a common enemy. They have not faced the facts. The Chinese are playing Islam against us, but they have not. One day will come when they will have to fight. The same Muslims will be after the Chinese blood. But you see, that is very long term. For the current career of the next 30, 40, 50 years they can enjoy getting the Muslims to do the gunda work, the dirty work against India. Ya, absolutely. So, this nexuses of the Chinese funded Maoist is very dangerous. And this nexus of the Pakistani Kashmir separatist funded, you know, people in Kashmir is very dangerous. And the nexus of Christian radicals funding various separatist groups in India is very dangerous. And these are working together. Of course. See, initially they were aligned with LTTE for training and lot of things. And then LTTE vanished. And then, where would you get the training from. You can’t go to Indian Army and get trained. So, all these people, I have reasons to believe. I mean I am not an author like you and great thinker, but I have just written a book called invisible enemies. And I have a belief, I have reasons to believe that India’s enemies, Hinduism’s enemies Are inside India. They are not outside India. Because how will Chinese money and Islamic money comes from this side Chinese comes and they are creating a corridor which runs from Kashmir. And earlier this corridor was going from Kashmir up to Bangla desh, right. Travelling over UP via Nepal border. See, it’s a very big geographical shift Rajivji. It’s a very recent phenomena. Now the corridor they are trying to move it via Bastar, Madhya Pradesh, Chhattisgarh. Via that corridor and Jharkhand, Orissa and like that. And the money is filtering form both the sides and who is facilitating it, NGOs. NGOs are run by people like you name Kavita Krishnan and all these They are always, you say against anything and you. Why do they come and start discrediting you? What is the reason? Why should she troll me? -That’s the whole industry that feeds these people. Of course! So, you see, this is the whole NGO world was seeded by Ford Foundation and others like them. So, they have created this thing over the last 50 years, put in billions of dollars, in order to kind of undermine India Make it vulnerable. And now, you know, now these foreign powers can say, okay, we can make you successful, we can give investments. You want American investment, you want Chinese investment, you want Arab investment. So, with one hand we can make you happy by giving you investments while on the slag we also have our NGOs to keep you on check. This is a very dangerous thing. The good cop and the bad cop. The sam, daan, and dand, bhed. So, one hand, is this we are doing this, you make investments, we are our friends, bahut ache hain aap, hamlog apse milenge, baatcheet karenge, doosri taraf se dheere through this NGO route so on, bhed dand ka bhi ham taiyar kar rahe hain. So, this is something our people, I have spent most of my adult life fighting this and researching this and making our people aware of it. I think now there is a good, solid number of people in India who understand this game. Oh, yeah and outside India also people have started seeing through that these people have an agenda, they have a strategy. Mark my words, I am telling you in next four – five years we will definitely get to know that their only objective is to keep this narrative and for that they are going to extort. See, if you don’t have the control over information today you cannot extort. This is modern extortion. And that’s why you will find they are people they are friends incompetent people they end up getting jobs writing jobs with New York Times, Washington Post because they are projected like that. They are so much of latent talent than all it sounds. It is easier to control and mobilize people who are stupid or mediocre because, you know, for them, there is greater value of being considered important, you give them some bhav. The price to buy them out is less. Aap dekhiye na. look at all the institutions. All the research institutions, all the policy making institutions, universities, the media, kala academy, lalit kala academy, this academy and all. Who are the people sitting over there? All these people believe in leftist ideology. Where I never hear anybody even tell me Bharat kala Niketan or Indian kala Niketan It’s an Indian body which should promote Indian art, they do. But I have never ever seen them talking against leftists. You see, Indian Council of Cultural Relations which is part of Indian Ministry of external affairs, I know them very well. They run the Nehru centres and things like that. It’s a huge deal for them to invite a person like me because they are so scared of. Have you ever been invited by kala academy or all these people or any Nehru foundation? Never. So, Nehru Foundation, all these Nehru things are primarily for all those people who try to protect, I am sorry taking name, Mrs Sonia Gandhi and that entire clan, they are like they work like security guards, intellectual security guards. -And the new government has not done enough to dismantle that. And then in some cases the new government has put some people who are also not that great. Like, you know, for instance, after the new government took over, ICCR recognized and awarded Rashtrapati Bhawan one of the Indologist who I know very well, whose name, whose work I have quoted in book, Indra’s net. He is one of those guys totally anti Hindu using his knowledge of Sanskrit bringing it down. These kind of people have been honoured. So, the government machinery is still wired and staffed and manned according to the old ideology. Ya, and I think one, you are absolutely agree, where I think, what the new government or the new politics, what they are not understanding that if you really believe in. See, everybody says Hindutva, I don’t understand what’s Hindutva I understand Vedanta, I understand Indic cause, I understand Hindu philosophy, Hindu culture, if you really want to promote it, if you really want to make India a proud Hindu nation you have to bring Hindu thinkers, Hindu intellectuals, people who have contributed, sacrificed everything for that cause, not somebody who believes in teeka and who says, I am a Hindu, I am a Hindu. And big bombastic statements for the substance. Ya, alright. So, people like you and lot of genuine Hindu thinkers, you have to bring them on. I call them modern Hindu rishis. What you have been doing for the cause, it’s I call it like if you are a rishi. 50 years from now, 100 years from now it’s all rishidom, you know. So, you are right. So, since we…recently this Supreme Court made this ruling on triple talak. I wanted to know your views on it. What do you think of it? Because, you know, a lot of the mainstream media are actually criticizing this ruling. As if the triple talak was good. And ironically people like Kavita Krishnan and others, one thing is to champion progressiveness, women’s progressiveness and so on are stuck on this. Very strange, it’s contradiction. This itself, we will talk about triple talak, but this itself proves that there is a Islamic and naxal connection somewhere. Yes. Okay? They come and defend barbarians called naxals, they come and defence of the Islamic fundamentalists because all the Islamic money comes from fundamentalism. Okay, progressive, liberal Muslims are not giving money, it’s not coming from them. Now what the problem with Kavita, in fact, why Kavita, Sagarika, Barkha, Kavita all of them, all these women and journalists, you see, somebody has compiled all these tweets. It’s like same tweet, they change couple of words here and there and they just start I call them Lutyens WhatsApp group. They send one thing on WhatsApp, everybody starts tweeting. So, I don’t look at triple talak as a Muslim issue. I look at it more as a women’s issue. And I was expecting that all these women who have been fighting, championing women’s cause in India, they should have come out and welcomed it. But, it happened differently. The entire script played differently. And they started questioning if this is happening then why not Hindus. It’s a very irrelevant question to ask. I feel the same way. I feel that Hinduism has gone through many upgrading, reforms, modernization in the last 150 years. Vivekananda, you know, and all sorts of Gandhi, you know, various Gwalkar various people have championed changes from within. Not imposed by outsiders, but from within. And so, this is part of the idea that smritis can keep evolving. Shruti stays the same, it’s not a violation that smritis have to adapt for the time. Smriti takes the same eternal principles and applies it to given context and the context keep changing, so we evolve. Now, I have written a book where, Being Different, where the Abrahamic religions, they have such a fixation with history, that what happened once in history to a god said something is so fixed forever There is no idea of smriti that can keep changing. There I use a term history-centric. They are history-centric, obsessed with history. So, you cannot modify. And therefore, And modification is considered some kind of blasphemy. So, you know, they are stuck with some old, archaic social policies, political policies, cultural policies and changing them requires bloodshed, revolution. When Christianity had a reformation, it took 200 years of violence in Europe. Big civil wars in Europe. Islam hasn’t started that in a very serious way. But it means to start that. So, the changes, whether it is burkha, whether, whatever these changes are that are needed for modern times, have to come within Islamic leaders. They have to start this. If people genuinely cared for women, if Kavita Krishnan kind, she is, I assume she has become a metaphor here, so we are not talking about a person, but people… -sort of role model for a certain type of people. O, yeah! I agree with that. So, now, what they do is, they champion women’s cause on paper when actually things happen they start defeating the same cause. You know, what kind of politics is this? Right, right. And, you know, it would be wonderful if they were open to civilized, respectful debate, discussion where we can disagree but not be hostile. And not sort of into this allegations and You know, they can get very dirty and you know, in terms of viciousness. That’s I think very unintellectual. They mob. You remember, they, all of these people without knowing the facts came against lynching. Okay. They made India look like that every day and every corner of streets people are lynching others. Especially Hindus are lynching Muslims as the narrative these people try to create. And there are some people some friends of yours here also in US who write for Indian cause, Indian people. Then people like Barkha and all they write for Washington post and have… There is an international nexus. This was created as Hindus are lynching. Right. But these people, see, if that is physical lynching, okay ? But what these people do is they come and they mob lynch you on social media because media. Today media has stopped reporting. Right. They report from twitter or Facebook or social media. They go early in the morning see a trend, pick up few things and build a news around them. And they are mob lynching and I think your entire life’s work they will discredit in no time. This has to be stopped and I am going to fight till the last breath I will not let this happen, this mob lynching. Well, good thing is that now because of the internet we have social media. I want to thank all of you because it’s the followers that keep me going. I mean that gives me confidence that it’s not a hopeless cause to be fighting uphill against such heavy powers because these guys, mostly young people And they are very passionate about these causes, they keep advising me, informing me, protecting me, fighting against some of these enemies. So, I think we are building an ecosystem, more powerful than the left has. And you have an organic following. So, you have more organic people who believe in this cause and to find 3 million people in these days is…congratulations. And you know I am making them do things. I am very angry at them if they just sit lazily. I demand that they have to perform, that they have to become intellectual kshatriyas, Which is not a caste term. It is anybody of any varna any jati, who is intellectually fighting for the cause is an intellectual kshatriya. So, we have started train…that’s a good, good coining of term. So, we have started online video-based education. We have started an academy where we offer online courses free of charge. So, every couple of weeks one concept of mine gets turned into a course. Okay, wonderful. We have four of these so far and by the year we hope to have a dozen of them. Next year we want to have about 50 or 60. So, we are taking these ideas, publishing in a heavy version in book for serious people to read And publishing a more user-friendly, doing it online using video. I and this is, achha I didn’t know about this but this is very inspiring and I think a lot of people should join these kind of things. See we have to create our own narratives. Where we lost the battle was, we never bothered about the narrative. Because our entire culture is based on telling story from one person to another That’s how Vedas travel. That’s how all our great granths like Mahabharata, Geeta travel whereas Christians and in west especially they catalogued everything. They catalogued, they create and they started building a narrative and that’s where in India if you see if you go into a village, there is no definition of intellectual. Right? They go to an old man. They believe that the old man is wiser because he has seen lot of life, he has heard lots of stories. So, more stories you have collected over a period of life, gives you that intellectual’s this thing. So, people like you who have lots of stories I think should use social media and use it for a cause. Seriously I don’t need people who are saying you are doing a wonderful job, I want them to act. They have to be volunteers of a cause. So, great stuff you have. Because you know, when you pressure people to take action in their own name then they embody the truth in their life. They have to face the anger, they have to face the music and deal with it. Then they become pakka, otherwise they are taali bajakar haan haan aap bahut great kaam kar rahe hain. I tell them that’s not good enough. It’s not good enough, that’s just for beginners. Okay, for a while you can do that, but then what are you doing. That’s what is required. So, we are moving more and more people, large number of people, thousands of people, not yet lakhs, but I want to turn it into lakhs. But so far thousands of people are moving into taking action. Writing, getting involved, making volunteering, we have several volunteer projects where people can sign up and become volunteer for some project. Some work that they will do. And so, this is picking up and this is what’s encouraging. No, that’s wonderful and I think Indian stories need to come out. Genuine, real Indian stories, stories of today, past and the future. I will tell you one very interesting thing, That some time ago I was talking to this, in Delhi I was there and I was talking to a bunch of young kids in IIT and all these places, they, the stories they consume On YouTube or on social media are Indian stories told by the western media. You know, and lost in translation in the process and somewhere or the other the whole purpose is defeated Because that pride, that dignity which should come after listening to the story is not coming. Therefore, it is very important that Indian scholars, Indian people write about Indian stories. I do not want this window shopping of Hinduism or India, I don’t want these dehydrated kind of stories. You know, they are not hydrated at all. So, I totally agree you are doing a great job And I have also started a foundation called, “I am Buddha” foundation. Yes, you mentioned. Ya, and this foundation is basically to discover native intelligence, native creativity, native talent. Very good, very good. So, we will work together. Ya, sure. Thank you very much and next time we will be three of us, Pallavi will also be here. So, please do tell her. Pallavi you are supposed to be here. And continue the great work and we will be in touch. Thank you. And you know December 22, 23, 24 we are doing a Swadeshi Indology Conference in IIT Madras. The theme is to counter this North South divide, the Aryan Dravidian divide. It’s important, we will do it. And so, we would like you to come. O, sure I will come. I will be delighted to come. You come and give a talk and maybe show some film or something like that. Because we want to unify Bharat. And so, all this negative scholarship that has come from the British time that the South is Dravidian and the Aryans invaded them and what not is all rubbish. It is not backed also. Rajivji, let me ask you this, is it a coincidence that you think of something and sitting at Bombay just some time later I also think of something like that, are we connected? I have just made a short film called Mohammad and Urvashi. Okay. And I have picked up religious motifs and beliefs from almost all religions and from Hinduism and I have put them under Mohammad. You know. And at the same time, I have taken some motives from Indian Hindu, Urvashi and I have tried to merge them. This film is winning, it’s a short film, 15 minutes film, it’s winning lots of awards everywhere. But the ideas was to bridge this gap. Like you are saying south and north, you know, similarly I wanted to bridge this gap and say the Islam we practiced in India, is also a function on lot of Hindu beliefs. So, I will present that film to you. I will send you. One day we will discuss this issue. The issue with Islam is not Islam, but Arabisation. Ya, right, wonderful. The Persians have created their own separate Islam, Turks don’t believe, Turks find it very insulting. They are Muslims but they find it very insulting if you say, aren’t you the same as Arabs. They don’t want anything to do with Arab. So, when I went to Turkey, I had lot of, wherever I travel I have lot of discussion, deep kind of historical, philosophical. The Turks don’t want to be mixed up as Arabs. They say, okay we are all Muslims but we have nothing to do with that. Iranians are at war, Shia and Sunni because of this Arab and Iranian issue. It is not an issue over their Quran or something like that the issue is over power. And so, the, the Indian subcontinent and east of us, all the way to Indonesia, is where the majority of Muslims are. The Muslims in the Middle east are very few percentage wise. They have lot of land, but it is desert land, not very fertile. And not high-density population. So, the people, most Muslims have been very deeply influenced on the Indian soil, intellectual soil, Hindu soil. And I wonder why do they lack the confidence to take over, Indianize, Hinduize their Islam. You see, this business of Wahhabism that came from Arab versus Shia it also, you know. The Indianized Islam could be a different kind of Islam. And we need to counter the Arabisation, Persianisation and Turkish, the Mughals were Turkish people. So, a genuine tradition, a universal faith has nothing to do with the ethnicity of the I personally believe that Sufism is, could have been Indian Islamic practice, you know. The Sufism which was a lot of mixture of Indian detachment, you know, and sacrifice based on that The real love. I think it’s time for Sufism to come back into Islamic world of India. But you know regarding Sufism, and I will do a separate episode when I doing on Sufism, The thing is that when there is integration of two world views, two narratives, it’s important not to lose control to the other side. So, Sufism enjoyed a period when it could have become, it could have brought Islam more into the Hinduism side. What happened is many of the very important Sufi saints took it the other way. So, they took this an opportunity to convert Hindus into Sufism and then bring them into Islam, bring them into Islam. So, many Sufis worked with the Muslim leaders. many Sufis worked with the Muslim leaders and they became the soft powered Islam. Then you first go there and do a qawwali and do all Sufi stuff and all that. The real turning point would be, If the Sufi festival which is happening in Delhi every year and I know the nawab who runs the Sufi foundation and I have met him a few times. I have also offered this to him why don’t you let the mosques do Sufi festivals? And he was very quiet, angry because you know, it is banned in the mosque. So, the thing is that they have kept the radical Islam version that is practiced and this is sort of you send these boys out to convert other people, but don’t practice it at home. It’s for export. Sufism became the export of Islam. Okay. Export variety of Islam. Ki logon ko sikhao, unko naach gaana karao, unko kaho ki tum Sufi ban jao, koi problem nahin hai You see, so the problem, issue is when the mosques become Sufi and mosques have music allowed, and women can dance and we can all go and dance, The non-Muslims can dance. There is no kafir concept anymore. When you cross that threshold then Islam will be different. And India is a place that could do that. India should take the lead in reform, reformation of Islam. No, then law and order, judiciary have to . Recently I spoke something about azaan. Okay? I have nothing, I have no problem people praying and all that But I said this azan on loudspeakers is a very vulgar display of anybody’s belief. Whether it’s done in Hindus or Sikhs or whatever. See, doing for festival is another thing, but doing it every single day, 365 days a year, As if god is deaf. They, I got fatwas and all those things on television one Imam told me you go and jump in the sea. So, you know, that kind of illogical, irrational When world is moving towards artificial intelligence. I think that mindset in the governments also has to play a role in that. Judiciary, triple talak, now judiciary has come in. Our new Prime Minister he has been talking very aggressively intensely about it. Similarly, people have to talk about it. And we need to move towards uniform civil code. I think it’s going to happen, people are going to debate it out in 2 – 3 years. Chaliye, I will just go out of this place and tweet about uniform civil code, okay, let’s talk about it. Make it a part of national mainstream conversation. Great. So, wonderful as always. You should make this a normal stop every time you come and stay here and when I am in Delhi we will interact. And keep in touch. And please read the book. I always thought where do you get these ideas from. Now I realise when such wonderful chirping of birds is around you all the time, you cannot help but think so beautifully. These chirping of bird is not sound effect that we have added, this is really a forest. This is really a forest. Very delighted that we could do this again. Hope we will do it again soon. Thanks everyone. Thank you. To help me you can go to the subscribe button on my YouTube and subscribe, we need more subscribers there. Secondly, I get lots of email on people saying, how do we donate, how can we help you? You go to rajivmalhotra.com or you go to infinityfoundation.com and you can hit the donate button. If you are in the foreign country like US or somewhere, you can donate in dollars there are different ways mentioned. If you want to donate in rupees, there is a column called Infinity Foundation India and you click that and there are instructions on how you can donate in India.