NEWSROOM - Debunking Fake news 30 07 2019

NEWSROOM – Debunking Fake news 30 07 2019



you well the media is regarded as the most trusted institution whose outputting information is nearly always consumed with less questioning that we wonder the title the Fourth Estate an addition to the three European estates that then existed with the advent of new media with the media a discipline that survives on verification has come under sharp criticism so we ask how has fake news or fake media if that will be a tongue affected what otherwise will be described as a traditional media good morning and welcome to newsroom a show that talks about the media protects the media just as we do to others welcome to the broadcast I'm a buckle Abdullahi have a set of panelists for my immediate left is Eric Gandhi the managing editor purser check vincent.gerven deputy editor Kenya Africa check and one gig you'll tell me if I'm getting that pronunciation correctly Mack deputy editor purser check and angle good and Leo mateesah the manager partnership and stakeholders engagement the media monitoring under such force from the media castle of Kenya lady and gentleman many times for making time for us this morning thank you and thank you for accepting our invites and welcome to TV 47 the very mention of fake news often puts the media on the shop focus is the media and our threat from fake news let me start with you I don't think so I don't think fake news per se is attracted to the media because the the factors that have led to the rise of fake news have largely resulted from the media basically taking a backseat when it comes to the sharing of information so I would say the main reason why misinformation of big news has become such a problem is because the way that we're consuming information are changing so it's up to the media to basically keep up with where the people are and how we're consuming information so that that way we can ensure that we're not being fooled let me get your thoughts on that Vincent I think it's an opportunity for the media to sharpen skills that they need and to enhance their ability to fact check and verify because really when you talk about even the words into fake news it's it's this political constructed word I mean really that term includes so many things that it doesn't really represent what's happening because it it is used for you know to describe everything from propaganda to advertising to bad journalism and even the fourth news so without that proper understanding of you know it's fair enough yeah I seem to agree with everyone but at the end the answer to that lies in the world manage how do you manage fake news as an editor in a media house how do you deal with fake news and I think the answers have been provided here and especially talking about more and more presence in research more and more presence in social media verifying and following the set of ethics that are there into media and I think the most important one is investment how to you competes with a very vibrant social media because it's talking about the waste that we consume media has changed the ways that public conscious media have changed so the media mainstream media in that regard needs to reinvent itself and you know now we are talking about only five bureaus in this around five euros in this country some of these some of which are defunct are not functioning anymore how to verify out as a journalist in true color for example and verify fake news from Nairobi that love also is dead now you're going to keep calling your editor in a Nairobi to verify this was we don't have access to these resources so it will be a threat if we don't manage if if the four of you are in agreement them the media is not under threat from fake news and every time we hear of fake news with people questioned the media isn't that no denying that these fake news yet the media is being questioned yet you all agree that the media is not under threat the credibility when questioned surely sounds like a threat doesn't it well so I would say the fact that people are questioning the media it shows like Koskinen has one of the most vibrant media environments in the region like we actually have the ability to question some of the things that we're seeing but what we've seen increasingly is that the media is taking a passive role in the sharing of this information so people are not able to our people are actually able to question some of the things that they're seeing because the this open space because when you have situations where the media is like heavily controlled at government whatever they say is taken to be facts and you can't question it and I honestly think that the media right now needs to take a more explanatory role like instead of fighting with bloggers or Twitter users to break stories there should be given context there should be explaining what does this actually mean for you as an ordinary citizen which I honestly think the media is perfectly placed to do but the fact that the the emphasis now is on who is the first to break a story and then once the story has broken there's no further reporting there's no day-to-day three that I think is very questionable yeah me ask you this question I was reading an article on al Jazeera a little bit earlier the title of that article is how Kenya is becoming the latest victim of fakeness the writer then zerah some boolean rights are echoed now everyone who has an internet connection can tell their story they have a turn of events and connects with audience that may be inclined to agree or disagree with them by so doing they cleared the bits and even clear consensus this rule is not far from when everyone has a right to post whatever they want at their own leisure and that is regarded as a source of information to the public mm-hmm doesn't that put the media to question if at all then anyone can write whatever they want and that is regarded as a piece of information yet the media's role is to inform it is it is the freedom of expression that is very clearly defined in the Constitution there's nothing much you can do about it and we cannot start limiting these freedoms because we know if you start limiting these freedoms you'd be taking this country back to a place where no one wants to go the idea of sharing information for me online it's not a threat it becomes a threat when you have politicians higher imports when you have politicians hiring people to spread fake information misinformation and force information falsehoods for that matter and it's going to increase as we get up towards 2022 if there's going to be a referendum it's going to be worse and therefore what we need to do is to in order to have partnerships and collaborations among various organizations that are involved in debunking faking you so that we can beef support to mainstream media because at the end of the day mana ng is referencing mainstream media to confirm whatever is being published on social media and do you think the media is seeking those partners and as far as debunking fake news is concerned all this is a standalone I think they are convolution that we're having as the media Council of King I mean the media Council of King is the custodian of media freedom in a way we are also the custodians of freedom of expression to us a large extent and also they partly the custodian of access to information one of the reasons why people and especially journalist share information which is half-baked is because they are also incapable they are able to access the right information that they can share to the public and therefore that leads their mounting motive information that you and that's why you find that today in the print media there is so much reliable sources according to reliable sources because we are really merely unable to confirm some of these things of course then there's the journalistic code of conduct that every journalist has to adhere to the various principles of fairness ideally they should be not the case on reason and therefore that is differentiate journalism from any other blogger any other media that we talk about because they again bloggers are not accredited as according to their code of ethics Vincent for you to respond to that let me ask on this question on the rush to break the news does it neighbor the rush of faking it does effect assume you are doing this you have an agenda you're not reporting their funds yet as mainstream media these are not of trust that is bestowed upon you by the public so I think it will be more important for you to play your role do your fact checking and verification verify the information before you can break it a Vincent you earlier telling me off air but if it's not verified don't post it don't say it don't don't put it on a publication yes but that's not always the case I mean it does you do see people rushing to publish before you know verifying and we see the results of that later they get proven wrong and that means that credibility takes a hit and well I would say that what we what we don't have I wouldn't call it a threat I think what the real threat is is the fact that revenue has moved online you know Facebook and Google in particular have who've had so much advertising revenue that there is really less money in the legacy you know newspapers that's a problem the challenge for media as far as fact-checking is concerned has to be that they have to work more with their readers because before journalists were gatekeepers now we have to reach out more that means asking your readers have you heard of this tell us about it you know is this event happening reach out to us and get that camaraderie with your users so that when this gets something that they suspect is false or that they don't understand they immediately send it to you that's one thing so you get you have your finger properly on the pulse as to what is happening and you're not you're not disconnected with the ground that's very important the second thing is that it's building on what Eric said about explanatory journalism one way to do that is to explain what such a new stories mean to you but the other way which is now very important for our credibility and for our survival as journalists is to tell our readers how we came up with the story and for a furious audience that wants to know what has happened at what time yes would it be really interested in a lengthy explanatory piece they'll just know in a click in a clip a tape like what was I mean I mean you can you don't have to you know the the format's have their demands mmm right the format's have that in mind but you can tell people exactly what you know at that point you can tell them what the implications are you can tell them what you're doing to confirm and you can tell them that you're following something and that you are going to get back to them so so that you don't you don't feel that you know you can go with something you know because you think that's the story even when for example you're thinking that something big is going to happen say you're looking for certain information from a government office it is just as important to tell your readers that these are the steps we have taken to get this information for you we call this pass one he didn't whether you have been given the information or not or not we call this person he didn't reply we emailed them five times they didn't get back to us but telling your readers that you have put in the work that's very important for building a fair enough respond to that glass I want to ask you a question on the speculative Ness of the stories that we read on purpose and also the stories that I had generally start times full to the top we as the media fall into the trap of speculating we play around numbers and see the possibilities and report on the possibilities there anything wrong in that there's something wrong with that and then before I go to that let me let me just put more weight on what they are saying about explanatory journalism and explaining news and what we are doing as the media turns we offer something quality information and literacy programs whereby we take editors to the field to the ground talk to the public and explain how they go about determining what is going to be aired at the end of the day so that the public can start understanding how news is produced at the mainstream media and how then you can keep and you say you take editors we take editors with us today today to the ground and to the VA is to let largely the people who are reporting on these are reporters and it is wrong yes yes yes and the final is a fair see let me tell you why we take editors according to law and according to the meteor Cancer Act it is the editor who bears the biggest responsibility even on advertisements today it is the editor who does take that responsibility for it is the editor when they receive a report it goes to the sub editor before it goes to the final edit and therefore through that child somebody's supposed to determine and this decide that this story is a demand function or it is real by also talking to the reporter and also trying to collaborate it corroborated from various other sources but in interpreting the question of speculative Ness that is happening in the media one of the articles released the media observer yes tonight and one of the article the first article actually in the media observer is talking about what we are calling there the journalism of the future I think that is the concept that has been advanced by the futuristic this will happen didn't happen and it's basically centered around the appointment of a ton and marketing finance cabinet secretary and you're asking yourself the day before the media was speculating and you know looked confident trying to identify the people that president is going to appoint and saying that so and so is going to be appointed because of various reasons that they were giving and so on and then all of a sudden the President Allen appoint them and I saw one one of the in one of the subgroups of journalists one of the an editor was like a the president has let us down the appointment we attack now so clearly is letting us down fair enough and they may have gotten wrong if they wouldn't have done that the audience would have been on the media's make saying they can't analyze the scenarios deduce on how things have but how do you analyze you analyze by calling people like Vincent to come to TV turn opinions you know to pressure that all but not journalists themselves giving their own opinion because that is what happened and that is something that we are very concerned about as a media Council of Kenya by the way and are we as journalists then failing to write our own opinions of the opinion pages and write new stories in the news pages well it may be taken as you're speaking on behalf of the publication it is very hard enough for you to be considered objective which are supposed to be as a journalist so if you write an opinion you work for let's say to the 47 it is going to be very hard to detect what you're saying as your individual your personal opinion and what your publication or your organization stands for so I think there's a risk subjective Vincent yeah on the question of speculation yes and trying to get the story in advance I think what would have been important to make clear was that you know here is who we think may in other words you have to make the uncertainty clear and that applies really to all journalism where or all situations where you're working with imperfect information you have to make clear to your readers that here are the things we don't know however here are some people who may so you're telling your your readers that you know even it could be these people or it could not be mmm but if you wanted now to come across as someone who is you know you in such of an exclusive and then you try to say that we know for sure it's going to be this person you've probably made your phone calls around people who you think know but even in that situation I mean we've seen especially around matters of not just public appointments but also law enforcement sometimes they keep the secrets very tight and they don't say so if they deliberately say that this is not coming out then you can't see you can instead of mouth telling people the wrong thing you can be up front and tell you the information around this has been kept very tight you can say that and if your competitor is pointing fingers giving a tight and answer to a question yet you on this other end given may or may not you have to trust yourself you have to say that's the approach they have taken and the they will live and die based on that right when it comes out no because it's all revealed when they are pointing with Hawkins yeah and if they get it wrong they have mistakes you know they say that we know journalists publish their mistakes for the ones to see fear this would be one such mistake well fair enough Eddie fake news and journalistic errors know what often is the difference in that so it's intense so fake news has to have some malicious intent behind it oh because a lot of the times because we're all human beings we make errors all the time but if you for example it spread malicious or false information with the intent of actually causing harm then that's where it becomes like almost weaponized because that's a definition that we're going with in terms of defining what fake news is because when you try to figure out what the intent is behind this information being shared because a lot of times what we've seen is information can be shared in error when someone says something in or someone misspoke but then when you look at that new you as a reader to read that article and then other times you will see people basically just flat-out lie because they hope to influence a certain decision so it crosses from just your average lie because we do understand journalists get things wrong a lot of times and when it does become when he does get like a malicious intent that's when it becomes actual false information that is my journalist gets an information wrongly yeah and there is an error you have that equipped fake news not necessarily because nothing true to it even though okay but that's where like correction policies come in if a journalist gets a story wrong they're meant to now come out and say we got this wrong like if you misspelled my name or he gave me like a quickie different name eco means you're free for some reason that's an error you haven't spread false information but if you then come out and say we erroneously refer to this individual by this name then that's fine fair enough Vincent I mean as I said Corrections are important and I think that in our space particularly among you know a lot of people who post on social media it is not everybody who publishes a collection and this is very important and I think it's a good time to emphasize Andry emphasize that people post Corrections when they get things wrong enhance their credibility because people know that you are taking being correct seriously if you get something wrong and you don't publish a correction and you know social media being what it is in this country people find out we always do and now you're left in a very uncomfortable situation because you they're not because you know you you know we everyone on Twitter seems to think that there are brand admitting to mistake time to be doing such things but we all perfect but you see no matter what people say you know inside them it is a fact as to whether they believe you or not and if they don't even if they don't tell you about it you've lost the credibility it's very important to post Corrections we see you know the daily newspapers do it some websites to it but it's a very good way because it shows that you value the truth one one will easily say carried a lie on the front page for the truth in the 79th the same question if a journalist mix understand that results to an misleading information that information is not true how then is it not fake news if you think it is not let me not put words into your mouth like Erica mentioned there's a difference between fake news and misinformation because fake news is where you outrightly lie and you know you're lying even before you click the post button but misinformation sometimes you do not you did not intend to mislead or tonight you wrote a story or recorded clip and thought it was factual then it turns out it is not that is misinformation you did not have the intention to mislead but it has not turned out it is false so it is very important to own up to that mistake as Vincent has it give like an editor's note we have since learned this and this is false it really maintains your credibility as a brand because when you just like let it slide – probably not forget something else will happen and be like that the same guy who shared this thing and know how true now is what he's saying he or she is saying now and it also like is damaging to also the brand you represent as a journalist because now that's how you have the time get there in media startup with just one person now you're all grouped as yes so it's very important the same question why can we pick the example of jimin lajiye advertisement on there under order on The Daily Nation that was deemed to be a mistake somebody entered and illegally placed an advertisement in the newspaper and normally like he said first the intent is there an intention of spreading fake news and that's what is that is the differentiation between fake news and the errors that we commit but again we say as regulator and as the media cancer isn't then you have to be able to explain to give a story behind the error what did you do that went wrong and that's what Daily Nation did the following day they published and showed us pictures of what happened the guy who came in and then you know place the advertisement and so on and the timed the timing was so perfect and such that everybody's rushing out and they they were about to go to print and so on and so forth if then you are able to give that kind of plausible explanation then we are going to buy it but then we also going to ask you to issue an apology in the same paper in the same equal measure so that then we don't have to go to court and that's that's the thing about journals in the spirit of journalism that it's a co-regulation model where everybody takes a responsibility if you realize that you've done a mistake and for the sake of your brand like she's saying then go ahead please and apologize if then you don't apologize we are going to come for you people will come for you that the courts will come for you and somebody's going to take on Museum will be back with this discussion of that is break stay tuned you twende Sasha – Nikita matanga zone moody aqua Moria who took a conga Manola Sotelo Bertuzzi happening in the county – Pocoyo la wait a vehicle Tia Campbell heavily OH – Khun a ruby cinema papa Makena okay panda keen on go Tommy Gina my face on the ballet mobile cahaya angle iana zoom sookie sookie vena cava Chikara padilla Changa muchos equina Carville of Kosovo marry Frau Marissa Cooper Purusha Bandera connect changuk when I'm upon the kokino go now he depends him to the Maji geo TV 47 macho not so dear to Tsuru Syriana hockey never penguin women katakana shockula see NAWAPA circle it's a funny quinoa katakana Whovian Jamie Indiana will kill button shanty Sharia hero is the portrait that was about machine learning to Naomi Campbell in an Ummah the mo kawaru to believe because on a jumbo you see only UN camo Steve who are Giza muginami cliff for doobie Nami and really me Qiu Yu da Matta to some other journey to Kindle or Nook Cheng and wash area he's Xena's or to DBT you welcome back to newsroom thank you for choosing us and staying with us via on TV 47 and before we continue with the studio discussion that we have in the news something about in to themselves without that Terry mentioned deep state which is Turkish invention which means stick in the state of the regime very very powerful team of Kemal atatürk who is the father of the modern Turkish state decades we see in Turkey despite efforts at democratization you wake up one morning and the baby has very quiet very effectively it has become essential to the wafer eruption 25 years especially around and especially output relationships that mesh the sector that's etc because be very grateful if you can assistance to stop it's funny this that is anti-corruption Crusader John Githongo there giving his statement remember that is the release of the anti-corruption report by the Kenya National lakenya rather Human Rights Commission will give you the details of that report in our subsequent bulletins and during our reporters were covering that story a little bit later now let's get back to the studio discussion that we are having good that it was a journalist who spoke little wonder we are talking of fake newzeas right before we went for a break we talked of the intent isn't it not difficult to then establish the intent of an information before it is even posted it it has to be shared first for us to sort of look into what the intent of the person sharing this information is doing but I think at some level we are hoping that people acting in good faith when they're sharing this information but that's why like we come in as fact-checkers when we have reasonable doubt when we think that some of the things that they're saying are being said with that malicious intent so that now when it comes to looking for the data that we can use to check this information we can move fairly quickly and sort of issue a response saying whatever they said is false yeah a Vincent a Leon you alluded to the point of the media houses needing to invest the check yes what is the importance to a layman who's watching us who doesn't understand how the media operates yes what is the importance of a media house investing in fact checking it's very important because we have to make sure that we are not only verifying you know things that people say fact-checking is is broad right that's why it cannot be an ad-hoc process it's not something you can do on the site and I think that just by explaining how weird Africa check check facts I think it helps us understand the work that goes into it because if you were to go to a rally somewhere and such an politician says something about number of jobs created or like the state of the devolution speech that the head of the chairman of the Council of Governors made recently so you talked about we have invested so much in agriculture for example the very first thing we do is to go to their representatives or even the governor himself if you can reach him and say where where does this data come from okay if it is in a fairly obvious place in also an economic survey or some funding law you know Revenue Act for example you know a country a location of the res New York division of Revenue Act then you know where to look you don't necessarily have to go disturbing him you know where to look so you just go and look there but once you do that then you are able to now find you know what the truth is in cases where it's something different it can be something a bit less obvious the first thing to do is to go and ask that person who said whatever they said where did you get your fingers from and then they will tell you some cases they will tell you I got it from this document I got it from that document sometimes they won't tell you anything which we agree is the lengthy process at theis yes in a 24 hour news setup that is always in the rush of feeling an airtime feeling a paper do you think that really is an ideal to them what do you do in that situation is remember you have you go back to what I said earlier you tell your readers that you asked him for evidence he didn't tell you you tell your readers that we are looking for this information or you tell your readers that you know when he was when we asked to confirm this information he did not tell us where he got it from tell your readers that right because that's important because what we find from doing fact-checking work is that when people suspect they will be checked they get more careful we have seen this over time when they know that famosa men it just appears as a news story of two minutes notice when a news maker does not think it's going to be fact checked they're more likely to say the other things now but when they have gotten a call from a fact checker who asked them where did you get this and then we publish a report saying that what they said was incorrect okay now they knew that there are people actually looking and checking we take more time they actually make more of an effort to get the actual numbers so this is very important because in terms of fact-checking what we want what I would know it as a fact checker is not necessarily to go and keep telling politicians so and so that isn't he's not telling the truth that's just necessary if the truth is not told what we want is for them to tell the public the correct thing so that we all get the correct information and benefit fair enough as a preamble to this discussion I said a statement that this is a field that has thrived on verification a discipline that has thrived on verification is alluding to the point that when someone has been for checked they are more serious which begs the question then are journalists foregoing the role of a chiclet you also no need to play the role of a fan to check out because you do not want like I've mentioned you do not want to put their own information out there because it will damage you as an individual and your organization as a brand so it is very important for you to get the facts right so that you not only correct them but you also inform the public for those who had not yet come across the false information they will now know the actual surely did not be the primary responsibility of a journalist in the beginning not respond but to enhance it and contribute to it because news production is that is a process is a long process which involves multiplicity of players including the sources the journal is the report the sub editor and the girl is blaming the sub editor because it's aware we supposed to do I don't care walk and then sure that you know even the grammar is correct and is checked and cross-checked before it costs the editor fertilization and therefore that the question of intent is also can also be measured from the beginning in the journalistic perspective of the ethical expectations I mean I am talking as an intermediate answer here because like I said from the beginning we are going to want to establish where you came from with that story and if you are talking about sources that you cannot measure do they meet the threshold you know so that at the end will measure the whole process how did you you know get to that point and also that let's not forget that a journalist is somebody supposed to be trained in media law in media ethics so that by the time you become a journalist you have also accredited by the media cancer because I thought the law was set up to you you are crazy I the media cancer and therefore the media can do has confirmed that you have received the basic minimum training to allow you and authorized you to be a generalist forget about that social media and that bloggers and that and the other guys out there we are as Americans we are still working on mechanisms of trying to bring bloggers into journalism by offering them some training on journalistic ethics and how to go about you know fact-checking and news and it is like you said I agree it is the basic responsibility of a journalist to fact-check before they release anything out there even are we foregoing that role as journalists if you slowly busyness this listeners in journalism today have much a lot of laziness in journalism today somebody just wants to peace raka raka then they send it out there and if you look at most print news today it has only one source normally it is a requirement that you have at least two sources you know one two sources of the attend you have a good collaboration I mean and we are talking about media being that you know having that bearing the biggest responsibility in spreading the truth similes spoke my mind on the question of sources we often have a caveat of according to sources sources preview – yeah TV for sale for instance was in touch with someone who is a source and many at times we find these sources at times are misleading in the event that this source has misled what should a media house do correction show correction but anybody I think we were talking about the stone artists remembered stone at least oil where media last year were after the middle of the swearing-in of the mock swearing-in of the then for prime minister that there was a headline from the nation that Rana will not go to stone other to meet their the principles but it was there that was never corrected but he went radio went the following me they never corrected that secondly there is a story that we followed up last year in 2018 when we are doing there are some techniques procedures fake news project now we are little bit limited we followed up a story in wingy where every news channel that we know today reported that I read you'd set Dropbox a choco carrying pro box on fire farm but the driver had to escape and then we started asking questions you look at the video clip you can clearly see that these people are not even interested in the pro box some of them or is it been stealing the charcoal so we send a team to the field to check on what criteria then should be used to deceive what you're getting from a source I mean in terms of fact checking and yes I mean I think most media houses I've invested in a various approaches not for us Media Console if we have picked an issue from a news you know a media then we send people to the ground to confirm or we may call restart with the editor then use the reporter and then you ask did you come about this information and then from there we are able to be the story and do a report and in most cases of course if it's a serious thing then you end up getting a letter from the media council or we encourage the aggrieved parties to report the Complaints Commission which is a you know an arm of the Media Console yes just to just true mission something on sources when a journalist is getting sources confidential sources me a time if they are trying to expose something that someone powerful want to super hidden there are real consequences yeah if the identity of that source is leaked people lose jobs or was so if a journalist you know uses a source to tell a story that it is very important for the trust of that journalist that the identity of that sauce be kept secret secret however in this case the journalists editor with whom he is publishing that story may know the identity of that person no so we won't tell the public but as editors we know who that source is and because it can get to a point where as a journalist it would be very difficult for you to practice journalism if the people you're speaking to out of there know that if I tell you something secret you're going to expose me no one will tell you anything you won't be able to work on their flip side when you talk about when you talk about you know using using sources if a source is also not credible people also have to remember that journalists also talk so if you're a source and you set me up I'm also going to tell my friends this person set me up and they also won't trust you it's very important so it calls for a bit of honesty on both sides I'm not going to let my colleagues be bitten by someone misleading them right so sources on one hand should also be telling the truth and not only journalists and and we see this particularly where you know if powerful people say you know maybe government officials want to discredit journalists because we see that happening they will put something false that looks good just to purposely mislead you and and and one of the most prominent cases was of the u.s. journalist Dan Rather if you remember that story where he wrote a story about how US President George W Bush had not served in the military as claimed and what ended up creating a problem was the documents that were supposed to have exposed to George Bush while written in a font that did not exists when George Bush was serving in war and they missed this completely and that really hurt his credibility sometimes these traps are laid for you as a journalist yes deliberately put traps for you they feed you the wrong thing so if you're not very fastidious about checking this is one way your credibility could be could be hard and we need to remember also that when we talk about when you talk about the credibility of journalism a lot of times what people in power want to do and we see it with Trump we think with Rodrigo Duterte they want to make everything fake news and we'll come to that a little later for the better part of this discussion we have talked about the conduit of this information which is the media let's get to the public the audience of this information do you as Eric think that there's enough media literacy in as far as the consumption of news and information from the media is concerned I generally don't think so like I just have to look at my family or that group and I would know who for a fact that some of the things that people are saying and claiming to be factual information or actually so I did has received yes and because we see like I mentioned initially that we're getting to a point where the way were consuming news is changing so we don't have the gatekeepers we used to have where you would for example get a newspaper editor and a journalist that they do the story and then you wait for the people in the morning but now a story will break and then it's already on Twitter in within seconds and then it's already on Facebook as a live video net and everything and if I have the capacity to post whatever I want yeah in in a in a space that is largely loosely regulated why should I be not posting that information because at some level you need to be accountable for the stuff that you're putting online as an individual yes because I don't think we're at the point where we are responsible consumers of media and one of the things as it's actually led to the spread of misinformation is the fact that we just consume things without questioning them and this a lot of really easy-to-use tools that we try to share with people for example if someone sends you a photo and claims that this was taken at a particular location and then you do a reverse image search that's where you go on a search engine and then put in that image and then it tells you any previous instance of that image has appeared that's one way to quickly verify if an image is legitimate and then another thing that we're seeing is stories that tend to appeal to our biases we are far more likely to believe them so for example if I am a strong supporter party a and then a story breaks that some candidate belonging to party a has done something they've done something fantastic I want something good and I really want to believe that story but it's not true and I haven't taken the time to check it I'm far more likely to share it and then another thing that we see a lot of people doing is not actually opening links on tweets so you see a tweet that says something with a link attached to it and then you share the link without knowing what's really yeah and then it just cascades so there's a lot of there's a real need for media literacy and one of the things that we're trying to do with some of the media organizations working with is trying to get them to sort of give their audiences a way to give them this feedback like we have seen a story and then we want you to check because we trust you as journalists to verify it but then if these same journalists are the ones sharing these fake stories without checking them then that's where the trust is lost now let me ask you the same question on media literacy other audience is really media literate um our Lancelot are two levels because media literacies is more than content and media literacy is also involves using this gadget and capable of using this gadget and forwarding information like you say and then your media literate but if you are this gadget and you are unable to a media neutral despite for dinner misinformation yes immediately should at that level but when it comes to content you are one unable to manufacture content secondly you are unable to understand comprehend content that is shared with you and finally you are unable to understand the impact of the content that you are sharing among the communities then your a media literate and therefore there is need for education in that regard we have so we got this pictures that would otherwise not be shared by someone with their own common sense has been shared by people who write flashy languages yes yes and that's that's where you need now to come and sit down with it with the public and educate them on how to really understand some of these informations what is fake and what is not fake what is propaganda and what is fake news you know and so on and so forth so that there's also government and where we are going we are going to be seeing more news from government and I'm saying this as an opinions as my own opinion without fear why should I be getting more news nothing about the big four agenda yeah in a way we have to achieve that there has been has to be achieved and you can see that there's a web certain way of nationalizing the resources towards the center so the big four agenda can be you know implemented and therefore you're going to see a lot of a lot of propaganda a lot of information coming from the government telling people that you know we have done this we have done that and you know like it happened towards the 2013 and towards the train 17 relations and even after the 2017 elections some of the creature that we saw from the various campaigns were false information I mean I'm not just saying this as a way of warning journalist out there and and news purveyors out there that we should expect this kind of propaganda because the biggest propaganda everywhere across the globe is the government's fair enough it's actually good to hear someone from the media castle of Kenya say so and on the same question for example I'll give like an instance be around the process and this misinformation was from the media itself almost it then I hope to see the public it was not there are some battles the steps like to instance there's two instances were from people who are government officials the rest was just from social media and you will find that people actually went while pushed to go in get this because they saw this and they like wow this is going to happen I need to without really understanding what the process entails so we need to increase media literacy because misinformation now and what we increase in this media literacy entail in your opinion you have to be like in this if I give an example of the habima number example the misinformation around it some of them what limited to come from a media meeting media house and we're actually using their screenshots from that and it got to a point where I was like a teacher to them this is now you're having like four screenshots in a week and we are turning out content but it still keeps coming so I have to reach out to them and tell them this is what we are encountering can you like do something about it and they shared a tweet and told people all this that has been shared is false if you want factual information follow us on our verified pages so that will help when people know if you want information from this organization go look here look here despite sometimes and frequently seen verified accounts as well posting fake news listing for yeah first of all just to be helpful she said no there's this misinformation and you don't give false information with intentionally there is this in the summation when you actually make things up and concoct them and throw them out there okay but on the question of media literacy I think it's it has to start from the beginning you know you have to you you find often that people cannot distinguish between a new story and opinion it's that basic right so you will find someone who is just a columnist on Sunday and people think he's a journalist no he has another deep table but he is writing a column so it starts from there and then there is how you recognize that certain websites are set up to misinform because there are websites where people do nothing but produce victims the producer falls news did I just dream that websites like that typically pass themselves off as satire websites so they are pretending that this you know may or may not be true a lot of them do not have a physical address you can't find them many of these websites pretend to be others so they will do they will play around with the web address of a common of a common well-known TV station so for example you could go to I could pretend to be TV 47 and I call myself TV 47 – Kenya and I make that website so I bring a night and I get your logo and I steal it everyone thinks they are coming to TV 47 and then I write whatever it is I'm writing you get enough true stories you get you know and then but in the among those true stories you sneak in some false words a lot of websites are built like that and so you have to be able to teach people how to recognize these websites to go and be able to find for example where there names are registered right if these are not people you can find them you know to be suspicious about all these things fair enough you alluded to the point of a failure of distinction on whether one is a journalist or an opinion writer is it so because the information nearly almost is the same no I mean with with with the newspapers it's obvious it's been liberal opinion yeah so it's very clear but you will find that often people do not know how to verify that someone is a journalist which is to say that they are credited by his people okay maybe a castle yes and also I think we need to realize that and I think I reported this out there is a world of tools that are free but every but lots and lots of people can use to determine whether information is true or false I remember one one instance where we you know there was this you know people who push hashtags you know one of these very popular hashtags and that was a murder it was a particular influence about a group of people and they were talking about how the Jubilee government had built infrastructure in Campbell County and saying that you know they build a sewage treatment plant in camp or town and they were showing this picture of this very impressive structure and when we did when we started looking at it the first thing we did was what he mentioned could even reverse image such you'll find out if it had been published before we found that that image had been used in very many places and the most common place weight had been used was India so it wasn't even remember also India and so now the problem was what we also found was we went to the environmental assessment documents for these projects and we were able to find the coordinates latitude and longitude and so we were able to look at satellite pictures to tell us what is actually on the ground in that place and we found some structures but they were very different from what was in the yeah so a lot of these tools are there you can find out using social media whether pictures have been photoshopped or not you can find out you know using you know whether you know you can you can actually preserve some of these tweets that you see if someone is lying on Twitter and they want to and they are being confronted and they want to delete it so that they can say I didn't find it you can actually preserve that tweet forever so that you can show him that yes you said fair enough you know Vincent talks about thorough investigation using dot of satellite images getting the actual pictures for journalists be as far as that as well they should not generalist media houses this is the media house to invest and one of the things that we're going to be discussing in the media summit next week is media viability Media general media sustainability how to sustain media in the era of the competing challenges that we are facing here including fake news and we are saying one of the arguments is that media houses need to invest in serious fact-checking deaths that is the beginning and then you're going to bring on board all these other tools that he's talking about that are free how they add I think the last time that the we also used to do some of these tools including the Google but the u.s. image and and so on and so forth an but I think we were just basic modest and everything and media houses can invest more they make a lot of money I want to believe and therefore they can they are capable of doing this they make a lot of money despite the profits early on on how Canadians first becoming the latest victim of fake news alluded to the point of fake news being on the rice during electioneering period it's fake news then a political point-scoring game I think so because you will find like close to elections people are pushing their own narrative and they will do whatever it takes to get to the top and there's a lot of thickness also around that time if you remember just before the 2017 general election there was like a whole fake video I put it to be from the BBC showing that this politician will if we do will is sorry is poised to win and you can imagine how damaging that is during an election given that things are very tense at that time so you can't quite tell the origin of this you will not know if it is a political camp doing this if it is it's very hard to tell but it is very important for you to quickly correct that information like the BBC came out and saved that it was not from them there was also one from CNN there was also one from each source there's a lot of like misinformation after that is just fake news because they which is fabricated content it does not exist and interests yeah to cause panic and you know any six emotions when they're public and push a certain narrative vision and you know it's it's like in Kenya elections are particularly important but we have to be cognizant that it is not just around the politics where this happens yes it in health this is big you know where people say that if you drink this you eat this think you has all the diseases it's we have seen it Africa Jackson's checked very many claims around fake job ads so you go there are people online who will make a job advertisement they'll tell you that it could be any big company that you can think of in case supermarket chains mobile companies who are is and they tell you that to be considered for this position you need to impress us 350 now that should be warning people that you know because really anyone who tells you to pay anything for a job is my to you but what we have seen is they get caught they do it again with a new company so today they say or Cana Port Authority the next day KRA they do it again in again and again and so what we have been able to do is to tell them well if you want to apply for a job because we have spoken to very many employers about how where they post their jobs but we have an official website or we post in the newspaper or you can take it to our offices okay offices our head offices if it's a supermarket take it to the branch and you leave it there so that empowers people who need employment and who are desperate so that they are not taken advantage because the reason why we think these people are doing it again and again and again is because there must be some people were desperate enough I mean we're doing that so stretches to pull yes but it's also bigger than that fair enough I talked of politics because we clearly are equally see in the trends living trumpism in our scholars of college as the generation of the term fake needs being used well what then is the danger of a leader for instance attributing everything that is again esteem to be fake news where he has in many cases yeah um I mean the biggest the first is that it's misleading to journalism and journalism are going to fall prey to this and therefore you go and if you end up you know spreading alike I say that the consequences are they of spreading fake news spreading rumors and gossip as a journalist if you are credited because you actually expect to hold you with the highest threshold of ethical standards that's that's one and we saw some time back some governors were doing that a governor will today issue a statement a rumor that we are going to be doing this and the media reports it and they say that was no that doesn't have a backlash on the media as well it's been the event that your audience are consuming an information that you reported yesterday and you had a journalist at that place who reported what the Anna for instance said and tomorrow he comes publicly to say that was fake news it it does but but you see now that is where people like us come in and journalism and facture cos you you have to it has to be part of you mission to call out and debunk fake news you don't let them get away with it mm okay you put out a report that says the governor said this it is not true here's the proof and you have to do that consistently and you have to do it on both sides of the political divide let's not be we have to be nonpartisan you have to do it on both sides now but it is very important not to let people get away with it so and in Kenya because we have seen we have the president deputy president all these senior officials we have 47 governors we have business leaders I tell you one time there are very many people who are making claims we if you it is possible a lot of these people speak on TV so you can go to youtube and verify the exact ones he said okay you can find and the audience in this case we assume it is already watching that TV with that byte over there yes so yes so the thing is but what do you have done because when you're fact-checking some would you like that you need to establish for sure that he said that yeah yeah so you need to make sure that they cannot tell you I was misquoted once you have done that then you can now proceed to establish what the best available data and the best available expertise tell you about what was said that day but you cannot let it go because if if because now you will open yourself to accusations that you're choosing to fact-check politician a and your little politician B go yes and that's that hurts your credibility and then on top of what consensus I said one of the things that we keep seeing is especially in like hyper-partisan in environments like just before just after election visit a lot of the misinformation that comes in is tender it tends to try to create outrage and by doing that people are distracted so instead of holding their leaders accountable actually trying to fight each other because just to be clear this information is coming from isn't the media or people who are driving their own agenda we could it's a lot of trends it's from people who've been directed to share this information by some of these politicians because they have an agenda in mind and then because of that because it's feeding this outrage machine and everyone is basically just shaking their fists all the time the accountability bit where like for example we are meant to be participating in these decisions that are being made it tends to get lost because there's all this noise and then the the narrative is just being thrown around all over the place and then the other thing that's happening is we're seeing journalists lives being put in danger when the stuff that publishing is called big news because one of the things that is happening like in Brazil or in the Philippines for example is every time they publish something that the president disagrees with he calls them out and he says this journalist has published this story and obviously they have an agenda against his government because we're doing such a good job and in an era then as such as it is where disagreements apparently equipped fake news you know how do media houses hold their heads high and say this is not fake news well I think you give Pat Lee give an answer to that a feedback a very good feedback to that we have an experience in Korea and experiences without even going to Brazil and Marsabit just the other day it's a TV is being accused by the county government of hate speech and therefore the county government has been pushing the closest most EPA now I've read you when you go tapes the radio they have all the clips they have kept a backup of everything that the government and the county government has been saying over the period and therefore they have all the evidence that they can master that we are being attacked for nothing we just air what the governor says but the government is not happy because we there's a way they juxtaposed know what is being said and what is being done and therefore the government is unhappy about that the same thing with carriage or journal is published and a story about the county government of courage or about initial it was correct according to everybody else but the governor was unhappy so what does the governor do with the governor calls the editing Aerobie and Thursday did I need fire this journalist this report on the ground and the editor doesn't provide the reporter because the reporter has provided evidence that what they have is genuine and therefore now the governor results or the politicians research two threats at one point I think they report a workup to find someone in the house you know holding a panga they she was lucky because there were more people look like how in the hell she was living with a sister and a maid and all that and therefore that guy got confusion then they you know so so it is here in Kenya and these are things that we investigate it's it's fake news it's it's having impact in the in our very own journalism in our very own society where we're living it and when leaders are quick to dispel any information that does not suit them as fake news and they sway audience and they have audiences that religiously follow them clearly that as well talks of the message getting a misinterpretation Midway to the audience I mean this is this is why we were saying that we have to be careful about this label fake news because of the ease with which people use and politicians you can be attached to everything here so a journalist made a genuine mistake fake news okay and then you are so you're putting everything together which is obviously not correct and not the right thing to do so we have to be able to fight journalists have to be able to fight for that and say that it is not fair and it is not accurate of you to call this fake losses you have to fight back you have to show the evidence of how we got our story and say these are the steps that we took to get these stories and then we have to contact the people making these claims a big part of missing disinformation and fake news is that people are hiding behind websites they are anonymous online you don't know who they are whether it is those people who are anonymous online or even politicians you have to contact them mmm yeah you have to contact them so that they know right that you know they were contacted and they can't say that I never spoke to that person before it's very that's a very very important person of a very important part of accountability reaching out to the person who said whatever they say and also when it comes to you know fighting this I think it is very important to acknowledge that you know there has been some progress right now there are actually certain high technology tools that can speed up the process of fact-checking and that can automate them recently at the global vortex conference we were looking at tool that automates the fact-checking process so if I'm a politician here and I am talking okay there is a program technology that will listen to what I'm saying will transcribe it into words and using that technology it can identify a claim there and lift it out and from my database pull out the relevant information and say true or false checkers like you and Eric and Ann its traditional media the normal TV and the newspapers are they ready for that rigorous process I should think so because I believe fact-checking is actually like a fundamental part of journalism so if it really entails much in satellite images yeah like this bin it was actually a documentary by the BBC about how they were able to track I think was South Sudan just come every week um it yeah they've done one about South Sudan but the really showed how you're able to track the location of that specific shooting to Cameroon by tracking the heroes or Google Maps and then trying to figure out from the shadows what time of day it happened and like they went through the whole process of explaining how they figured Alex the whoever shooting happened and who was doing the translation so this is literally just investigative journalism and at some level because all of this data that we use in our tactics is publicly available we don't make any data on our own so if for example our governor says we haven't been able to build a school because we haven't gotten money central government you actually have Treasury publishing a record of how much money they've been dispersing to the countries and therefore it's up to the journalists producing these stories to ask these questions like if you have a one-on-one because media houses generally have a lot more access to politicians than we do try us with me so if they actually want to hold politicians to account this information is available so it's basically just good old journalism asking these questions and then getting data and then saying you lied about this and this and it's like all of the tools that we've used in our work we share them like as Benson said we have a refinement to make our methodology transparent fair enough man and in a media landscape that is continuously cutting on cost lane of people just so that others play double-triple roles the media really ready for embracing you have to embrace verification for your brand to stand because I think the minute you publish something in any turned out to be false it takes a hit you will take a hit as an organization when people start saying yeah these ones are just you know then the other Diddy had posted a fake thing it really is damaging so I think it's very important yeah it is tedious it is a lengthy process but the product that you put out there is so good because you even explain the methodology as they have mentioned when we do our first check articles you will put the claim and then we will explain how you have arrived at that rating and show all the data that you have used the same way that we basically they should how they have they verified that this was not because it was Cameroon and I can't remember the other country that people are claiming the shooting happened but the short step by step step by step the tools they used to come to the conclusion that this happened in Cameroon you do not have a choice I'm not questioning the practicality of much in the images digging deeper to find the truth is and this question in whether the media is really ready in terms of investment the consequence is that rather than the bites of the consequences of failing to debunk more you know then you know investing in fact checking I mean like it she's saying there's no choice and I think media how is this full of putting up our media all the TVs take it like this don't you should be able to you know it doesn't take basic technology too much I mean let me mention a couple of things that can really help any media house if you're looking to factor the first is the quality of your sources and online Holdings I think that it would be a good thing for any media house to invest in getting their journalists access to online channels okay so science technology all those journal articles so that we can be able to read the latest research that's number one if you can do that you will help a lot number two it's important in the fact-checking business I think we've as with any journalism to recognize the limits of your knowledge and I think this is something that every journalist has to recognize that I'm going to do a business story but I'm not a specialized liberal economist not I'm writing a health story but I'm not a doctor that I'm writing a story on security but I'm not an expert criminal lawyer or policeman or soldier and so we have to attach ourselves to expertise so we have to be very careful about one how you identify someone is actually an expert okay so because we clearly have many yes so if they are talking about you know economics what economic olaf occations do they have you're talking about medicine what medical qualifications do they have do they publish work in this field do they consult in this field do they write in that field and so these are people whom you can ask questions that are complicated there are people whom can actually interpret data for you it's very important when you're choosing an expert is obviously to look at the affiliation and find out who do they work for who is paying them because that obviously influences the kind of information they can give you if you know more than one expert even the better for you you can ask this expert and you can ask this expert decide before you interject on that point isn't it not the society's expectation the audience's expectations many at times that journalists should know it all it is unfortunately it is called the watchdog of the society and therefore for you to be the watchdog you have to know you have to know a lot if you can know everything and the issue of specialization comes in here so that even the media house when they are hiring a reporter over I are examples watching the judiciary they're hiring someone who understands of the usual judicial watch and if they don't understand they take them to a training the same thing where you have somebody reporting agriculture in an environment this specialization also has to be seen in the kind of journalists that we work with so that we stop the institutions that trick journalist also stopped raining just journalists as journalists specializing in aspects of audio report environment for example how do you access information on environment and also creating working relationship with various ministries and various departments the Kenya National Bureau of Statistics is a very necessary entity in this regard and another and other sources and by the way the comment I made about Korea under permit I just want to show disclaimer that I'm not accusing anybody good we have talked of fake news how then do we cub thick news I understand we have close to six seven minutes to end the conversation how do we cap well first the first thing we have to do is if we cannot is to ask for evidence always to reach out to chuckles like you yes can I help you can definitely help and and to be more circumspect about spreading information yeah if you think if you're not sure if you don't know the evidence standing behind something then don't spread it even if it's you family even if it's your friend even if it sounds funny even when the temptation of breaking that news getting that information is concerned yes hang on to it don't send it in fact what you should do is reheat reply to the Apostle who sent it to you hit reply don't fall hit reply and ask do you have evidence where did you get this hey enough Eric on the side of like body misses we have to be a lot more conscious about how we can see the news and then we also have to slow down the speed at which we consume information because a lot of times we just skim through things and then because it generally agree with them that's when we try to share them we try to send them out so if we not are asking the questions that Vincent has mentioned where is this information from who has excited where was it published and what does it make me feel that way we can be a lot more responsible and come to sharing this information and then the other thing is to call people out when they share things and then they try to hide behind forwarded as received because that's being responsible you're trying to outsource that responsibility for this information but sometimes because you're sharing this information without checking it can go out and they caused some damage and then then when it comes to the production of the news we we need to move away from you want to be the first one to break a story you want to actually listen isn't that the glimmer of being a media house once my back if you tell another and then you're wrong you will have to eat what I'm saying is what it comes to production of the news is like we have to be a lot more conscious again a lot more responsible about who we are asking in what questions were asking I think it's also very important for journalists and media to get the information straight from the source like have primary sources of data for me we have instances where someone has published an article because it appeared on these other publication which is a mainstream publication so you like if they have shared this information then it is accurate then it turns out to be false then you have a problem why is no it was shared by these people so we thought it was right we use them as a source so it's very important for us to get credible sources get the information from the primary source their your final thoughts on the same yes are coming fake news and the spread of it the first thing is trained trained and more training especially for journalists and editors and everybody who is involved in there anyone with actually we involved in any news gathering whether there is a cameraman is a comedian you know anyone who appears in a studio to talk about anything or to you know project that in the comments a training more than what is just given in the schools and hideous targeted training for journalists but generally they are not trained about out of the bank fake news you know so that they expose these tools that has been talking about the end and Eric and then the second thing is education targeting to the target is to the public's and that's why we have been talking about me the information illiteracy and finally the biggest one is partnerships and collaborations between entities and organizations and institutions that are involved in you know fake news and debunking and so on and so forth I think that would move us forward and that's all after this discussion Liam Tasya from the media Council of Kenya thank you for making time for us and again Gary I hope I got your name right the deputy director passage deputy editor a peso check Eric maganda to my immediate left and who is the managing editor pass a check Vincent and get a deputy editor Kenya Africa check lady and gentleman many times for making time for us thank you for having us that brings us to the end of today's edition of newsroom remember the topic of discussion just as a reminder has been debunking fake news thanks for watching bye for now up next is motoki and Johnny with Paul key Robbie don't go too far you

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