Live with Marketers: The Top 3 B2B Marketing Trends for 2019

Live with Marketers: The Top 3 B2B Marketing Trends for 2019



hi everyone my name is ty Heath I'm global lead for market development at LinkedIn marketing solutions welcome to this very special holiday edition of live with marketers because what more could you ask for for the holidays so today we're gonna be talking about contrarian ideas and b2b trends before we dive into that I have a few housekeeping items to go over so first don't feel like you have to take all the notes we'll be sharing a recording of this after the presentation also we have on the on 24 platform loaded resources that you can dive into including a full list of the trends we'll be talking about today so feel free to check in to that also we'll be taking questions throughout the conversation so feel free to chat in any of the questions you have into the Q&A console for our social butterflies if you're posting please use hashtag live with marketers and let us know how we're doing after as well by taking our survey so really important also we've got a live studio audience the live Asst audience in the building let's hear it folks yay so the spirit moves you if we say account-based marketing demand generation and you can't resist it you're just so excited clap it up and cheer us on exciting that's right that's right so I want to also introduce my wonderful colleagues here so I have here Peter Weinberg and John Lombardo and I think that it would be great if we all got to know each other a little bit better before we do that I want to tell them a little bit about our team so we all work together on a team called market development and our team's mission is simple we want to bring the freshest ideas to marketers globally so let's get to know each other a little bit so Peter why don't we start with you why don't we do brand that you appreciate for me I love Joe Malone I think it's simple and fresh I love Starwood Preferred Guest I've been a member for a long time and of course Michelle Obama because come on she is everything not how can you not love her so why don't we start with you what's a brand that you appreciate well first of all I just want to say how honored I am to be here as a child it was always my dream to be on a talk show about b2b marketing and that dream has finally come true as a very emotional moment for me some gay slightly choked up in terms of a brand I think the greatest brand of all time is probably Guinness you know John and I are obsessed with this thing around distinctive assets so like what makes your brand unique so that it can't be confused with any other brands and I'd say Guinness is probably the most distinctive brand of all time it's got the color black its associated Ireland it's got the harp it's got the whole history you never confuse Guinness with another beer and just a wonderful thing to drink I think we can all agree lovely drink lovely day for a Guinness glad your dreams are coming true also Peter yeah emotional emotional eaters a marketer who cares about style I care more about substance I'd have to say my favorite brand of last year's probably Cambridge analytic work in the nonprofit's it's true the data is remarkable can I give a serious one yeah please do and a little bit less and this will tie into some later conversations but I think Batman you know even superheroes really understand the importance of branding which is actually a lost art and marketing these days branding so we'll talk about what that means that later under time during the show but Batman Batman indeed he's watching us now I hope okay so what we're gonna do today is we're gonna talk about two macro trends and then we're gonna do like a quick round of other trends so other trends that will actually be launching in 2019 so you can get a preview of those and I want a level set when we talk about trends we're not talking about future stuff like VRA our Star Trek Star Wars I'm marketing we're talking about real practical little-known trends that you can launch right now to make a difference in your marketing and there happen to be contrarian ideas so before we go any further Peter I would love for you to explain why is our team so in love with contrarian marketing and a little bit about the history of our trends I would love to explain that time so we like to say our trends are contrarian by design there's really two very good reasons to be contrarian the first is for sheer entertainment value so if I tell you guys like social media is a trend you know that already it's not gonna be very interesting it's likely to be very memorable you've already heard it there's also a very good strategic reason to be contrarian which is nicely described here by this thing the contrarian matrix big idea in the world of investment so basically in any decision you make personally or professionally you can be contrarian or you can be consensus so you can do what everybody's doing or you can do it nobody's doing and of course you can also be right or you can be wrong if you're wrong it doesn't really matter if you're contrarian or consensus although it's particularly awkward to be contrarian and wrong because everyone hates you and you're wrong lethal combination terrible place to be but underrated Lee I think what people don't appreciate is that there's also not really any upside to being contrarian and right because let's say you think real-time marketing is a great idea and so do all of your competitors well that means there's no advantage for you you're basically just treading water so the only place to be where there's real serious upside for you as a human and as a marketer is to be doing what nobody's doing and to be absolutely correct that's why we pretty much only talk about contrarian ideas because at least we've got a 50/50 chance of upside anything you would John know but the point about risk I think is interesting the idea that if you do something and you're sort of alone in doing it you think it's right sometimes it takes a long time for that to actually pan out and so you're in a risky position but that's why there's a lot of opportunity right everybody's doing it there's no opportunity there it's competed away so you have to get comfortable with the idea that some of the things you do you know they may be potentially in a risky in the short run but we do think there's a tremendous opportunity in the long run I'll also say we're probably going to say some provocative things usually we're the records of the whole video recording things probably not great for our careers but we do actually believe everything we're saying so we're not being contrarian for contrarian sake we're saying these things as we believe them to be correct so at least we think that we're right although I'm sure we're not right about everything no risk no reward no risk no reward okay so with that let's discuss our first trend which is the originality delusion so the originality delusion is about the tension between new and old ideas and also perspective on how marketers should manage change so Peter you tell us a little bit more about the originality yes I can so the originality delusion is basically like the great sickness at the core of marketing and it's really it's best described I think as an obsession it's an obsession that marketers have with new things with newness all of our clients want new channels new products above all else they want new creative right everyone in this room has probably been asked for a new never been done before idea right our whole industry celebrates and obsesses over net new things the problem is if you take the customers perspective basically marketers love new things people humans generally speaking are actually terrified of new things it's actually an evolutionary adaptation so like cavemen who weren't scared to try new things tried some new berry that looked interesting and turned out to be poisonous they died so basically people who were just unafraid to try anything new they'd never seen before all those people got edited out of the gene pool all of you are sitting here right now because you're at your core you're paranoid you should feel good about that well people really like is familiar things there's actually a name for this called the mere-exposure effect you like things that you've seen before and that plays out time and time again I think marketers who don't understand this generally walk into disaster so we'll give you an example of two marketers who very much overrated the importance of new things the first is Tropicana this is maybe the most famous antique a study in marketing so the marketers over Tropicana they start to get very bored of their packaging everyone had seen it before you know the orange skewered by the straw they decided you know what let's change it up let's try something new so they decided to change their packaging from this to this can't remember the exact figures but I want to say they lost something like fifty million dollars and maybe six weeks their market share plummeted double digits they had to immediately revert back to the old packaging just to save their brands the point is marketer wanted something new customer wanted something familiar that they recognized before maybe that's too anecdotal an example for you so I'll give you a more data-driven look this is a recent article in the drum fantastic article and basically the author analyzed a bunch of campaigns and she asked a very simple question which is how often does the new creative we run how often does that outperform the old creative that was running and this is the answer one in five times in other words four out of five times you would have been better off just letting the old creative ride so again marketers want new things customers sort of want old things and we've done some research on this Jen you want to tell them at the Edelman research yeah we've done interesting research with Adam and these are in some respects you can call them b2c examples but it turns out that this idea holds true across b2c and b2b can be to be we did research with CXOs asking about thought leadership and we said what do you want thought leadership what we found was number one was relevance relevance continues to be probably the biggest problem in marketing that we are not really relevant in most of our marketing it's because we don't understand our customers we can talk about that later but relevance is number one big challenge number two is actually actionable so can I go and do it right because an idea that I can't go out and do doesn't help me all that much then number three which is only 50% as important was was originality so really if you think about it relevance is twice as important as originality yet as an industry we fixate on originality new but there just isn't a lot of evidence from Tropicana to this campaign analysis from the drum to even our own research that shows that you know really what you want is old and familiar you don't actually want new and unfamiliar so let it ride as a first point you're making here and then also relevance here originality here right I mean marketers struggle to produce content I think we all know that one of the big reasons we're all agonizing over well can we make sure nobody else has ever said anything like this and a history of the human race turns out we as marketers care a lot about that and the customer basically couldn't care less they just want information they can do something with so what should have tropicana done differently in this case what can we learn from them there is a so we have this wonderful idea which we didn't come up with I wish we had have been great if we had come up with it but unfortunately Raymond oh rich but he was born before we were even born so we can have a chance this is 1940 I mean I wasn't born I was more much later than that anyways enough about my old and young soul Raymond Loewy comes up with this idea called Maya and – stands for most advanced yet acceptable because at the same time you can't leave the conversation and never change what you do right there's gotta be some blend between new and old you kind of need a foot in the past and a foot in the future if that makes sense and when he comes up with his idea of Maya and Maya explains how you slowly evolve so it is you don't radically change that's just too quick a change for consumers or for customers so you've got to change much more slowly so we look at Tropicana what is it about Tropicana that really appeals to consumers that they recognize it is the iconic orange with the red and white straw it is the Tropicana font it is the orange you know cap on the top so because there's these very core brand elements they change to this what you see here right you know marketer said well people drink out of a glass you know they don't drink out of an orange that doesn't make any sense but people want to be able to recognize something doesn't have to necessarily make sense like in some respects nobody obviously drinks out of the orange but that's not the point it's what we know it for right and that's become sort of like what it is as an iconic brand so what they do is they keep the core things the same here's what they do right they go from basically like old technology which is paper to new technology which is plastic very serious change plastic the graduates you see the graduate you new plan but really it's the same thing right the marketer achieves some cost savings they get to change a little bit write paper to plastic but they keep the core brand elements the same so the orange the straw but this is the minor evolution almost like glacial evolutionary change this is what really good we would argue brand management looks like it's slow evolutionary change that is rigorously tested so you find out exactly what customers know you for and then you keep those elements the same where you don't we aren't known for something maybe you change that so it's just a way to sort of as we say don't be original be be Maya I think the other idea is that if you have something very new whether it's a message or a product you have to actually make it seem old so that people aren't terrified of it you have something that's very old you need to make it seem new to make it surprising and interesting so like classic examples Henry Ford he came out with the automobile no one had any idea what that was they called it the horseless carriage that's also Maya it's the old idea of a carriage just a minor technical modification which is that it doesn't have a horse right and you see this come time and time again as a way to manage change in a way that doesn't terrify people incremental change a more recent example I think is quite interesting whether you like Bitcoin or not it's the idea bets zeros and ones but coins which are tangible which you can feel so it has sort of one foot in the past and one foot now let's talk about Bitcoin for 20 to 30 minutes take all of our fees in Bitcoin we sure do it's been very profitable for us indeed so what are some real applications of this like I know I know we've talked about blockbusters in the past maybe share a little bit about that with the audience that they have blockbusters yeah I think if you look at who really understands this better than anyone it's Hollywood everyone in marketing is trying to create real-time content they're trying to run brand newsrooms think for a second about what Hollywood does which is the opposite of the news model it's all about investing in old stories so if you take a look at what Disney is doing Disney has a pretty simple data insight it's that in the past 13 years the top performing movies have all either been remakes of old movies or remakes of books so that's the mere-exposure effect at work right people want old familiar ideas told in a kind of new way so Hollywood is basically going all-in on very old stories right sequels prequels what this means from a marketing standpoint is pretty simple it means you should basically be doing the same thing every single year I realize sounds incredibly boring and depressing but unfortunately it's also how branding works right so our team did 2017 b2b marketing trends it was quite successful if we do say so ourselves right team yes so what are we doing 2018 we did 2018 marketing trends that's what we'll be doing in 2019 so you build equity on a franchise over time and you just can't do that if you're doing something net new every single day doesn't work I mean Netflix is another way to think about this Netflix is kind of next generation Disney let's call it and what they really do is they look at the data and figure out what has worked in the past and then they create new shows based on that so very simple example is they went and license a bunch of shows from Disney the shows were all basically superhero shows like daredevil is a good example right and so they know this has worked in the past and many instances the Daredevils like a 54 year old idea so a lot of the bets that they make are actually really old ideas like jiro Dreams of Sushi was a good idea so then they made chef's table right if any of you watched food shows and so I think there is an interesting idea going through your past marketing and figuring out what really worked there and figure out what can you franchise you have a Star Wars do you have some sort of show you can do year over year or a year a year and I think in general one way to think about this which you mentioned but I think is worth pulling out a little bit more is this is like a very stark contrast to real-time marketing which everybody talks about which is its own cottage industry and real-time marketing just talk about it for a second it is predicated on this idea that like we can do a lot of dunk in the dark type tweets but when that went out then 60,000 followers on their on their account and then obviously we know what click-through rates are like and you actually had to click through to see an image so effectively the dunk in the dark tweet reached 0 people that's number one didn't reach anybody in target audience and of course there's no way to do whatever again your marketing strategy can't be things that happened once that will never happen again like if your strategy is we need during the Superbowl the lights to go out well how many times does that happen right and so this idea of real-time marketing makes no sense you contrast it with Disney or Netflix as their franchises and you get all-time marketing so there's your pithy all-time marketing versus real time work that's marketing for the ages I mean Shakespeare that's right makes people are still recycling shakespeare's storylines right isn't it so I think is real power to it but I think the temptation to come with something new is something that a lot of marketers have to confront and so this is our third year b2b trends how do we resist the pressure to churn out new ideas what are some thoughts you have yeah the pressure is real I think we need to reframe what creativity really is this whole idea that being creative means doing something nobody's ever done before that's actually a very modern idea and not a particularly good one so you mentioned Shakespeare talk about Shakespeare a pretty decent poet or playwright I think we can all agree so like none of Shakespeare's plays were original they were all stories everyone was familiar with at the time and nobody thought that meant Shakespeare wasn't creative or a great artist he only had one original play fun fact which is The Tempest she's incredibly boring play so the only time he tried to go kind of original I'd say really backfired although I know there might be a lot of tempest fans in the room and I apologize so yeah I think we just have to appreciate being creative means doing things differently it doesn't necessarily mean breaking with the past and in fact if you're a brand marketer you're trying to build a brand over the long term you can't break with the past if you want to create familiarity and memorability which is what actually drives sales I think there's also the idea that creativity is probably best achieved through constraints the idea that having no constraints will make you more creative I would argue it's probably can make you less creative so when we think about it there are core things we think about which is kind of like old ideas over new ideas like we like reach over engagement we like sort of like been successful for not been successful so there's just core principles marketers should settle on and then you should ask yourself like is this a new idea oh it is I should probably be skeptical then I'm probably actually gonna keep an old idea like can I do it every single year I can't like it's a one-off idea like real time marketing Duncan the Derek well I don't want one-off ideas and so once you have a checklist of sort of things you believe your core principles it becomes pretty easy to run ideas through that filter or that algorithm or formula whatever you want to call it and then achieve like a yes or a no that I think gives you a chance to be successful how do you bring the glitz and the glam of the new that's a sexy new thing how do you bring that to old I think you don't I think you just got to get over it you know I mean the funny thing is I've seen get very upset about this trend because they start to talk to me about creative fatigue are creative fatigues we can't keep running the same thing year in and year out the interesting thing is that there's actually like very little evidence for the existence of creative fatigue creative fatigue is basically when marketers get tired of running something that nobody else had any idea was even running right so if you go read articles on creative fatigue what you'll see is it's people saying their click-through rates decline over time which is true you to click-through rates decline over time now if you if you think which we think that click-through rate doesn't really mean anything then you start to ask okay maybe I don't care about clicks to what degree does recall or awareness build over time and that's when you see it's sort of an inverse relation the longer you wear something or sorry the longer you run something the more familiar becomes so there's not really we're out there's we're in and that's what a lot of these econometric studies have suggested that ads get more effective over time as people become familiar with them we're all too scared of creative fatigue to really wait for that to even happen which is actually a pretty big problem in the industry I would say in general also the glitz and the glam I mean the glitziest Glamis thing you can do like grandma's who were very sort of like let's you're called glam is just interesting you have a glam um she's watching all the glam all the glamour is out there but I mean the glamorous thing you can do other than be a grandmother is obviously to be the CMO but right now CMOS are practicing a very specific approach which I think has a lot of the hallmarks of bad ideas and so tenures are very short right there are three four years they're getting smaller and smaller and smaller or shorter and shorter shorter this is where I think you could be contrarian and be less about glam and more about effectiveness if you adopt effectiveness ideas you actually position yourself in that way which is contra the broader market narrative I think that's an opportunity to become the CMO and then you get a lot of glitz and glam from being effective I was so I like that so let it ride and otherwise this is the new glam so with that let's actually turn to our next trend you ready for the next one guys super glam okay alright so our next trend is called Wharram brand so this is actually not so much a warm brand than it is a war for who gets the budget in marketing so John who is winning the warm brand great question the war in Branson when we think about war on brand we're really talking about there are sort of two parties that are competing for marketing dollars you can call them the lead generators and the brand builders those are the two parties generally they should work together but often the money you know goes to one group or another they're more siloed right so as of today or ten years ago let's start ten years ago it was about a 50/50 split money was spent on brand building and money was spent on the lead generation fast-forward 10 years now 72 percent of money spent on lead generation spent on the generation and twenty eight percent is spent on brand so when you ask who's getting the money it's the people that are doing the short term lead generation or sales activation and happening at the expense of brand so we call it the war on brand because that's the idea that there's a bat it was basically a ttle over over budgets and when brand builders are losing it and there's actually a really great piece of research that talks about this phenomenon and the research is called comes to the IPA and it comes from this study called marketing effectiveness in the digital era there's also a companion actually predecessor a report called the long and the short of it and it looks at how brand building works and it looks at how lead generation works and there's a reason that money's going from brand to lead generation right we have digital tools we have real-time measurement and the things that are really easy to get measured tend to get measured and then optimized for and there's some way to understand this which is around time horizons and if you run a lead gen campaign you will see short term results the problem is those results quickly diminish in performance it's what happens is you know there's a lot of people talk about it as the low you pick the low-hanging fruit right and then you have this tree which has no fruit on it anymore and it triples and it dies that's tough right I wouldn't serve you many meals sadly but that's kind of the way to think about like you need all of the fruit you can kill the tree or the Golden Goose and then there's there's thing left right so in the short run though you do get some some impact now brand works differently brand takes time so brand doesn't start to show impact until generally nine months in twelve months it in some cases to three years again remember the CMO the average Diego has about three three and a few years in the job so you can't go into your CFO and say give me three three and a half years I'll come back and everything will be okay it's just not how it works so you've got to have some blend between short and long and what this report actually says is you don't do one or the other right it's not like you just do all brand because it outperforms the long run or you do all lead gen because it outperforms in the short run they have coined idea called the 60/40 rule which means 60% of your budget gets spent every year on brand and 40% of your budget gets spent on lead gen and that actually is the way to generate what they call very large effects that means you grow your market share you grow your sales you grow your profitability and then ultimately you can grow pricing power as well over time that's the way to to balance so this is nice but do we have any proof points any client asked hi it's almost like we so instantly planned all totally off-the-cuff but we haven't have a slide ready so our clients have started to see this for themselves it's one thing to talk about the research and the abstract it's another thing to just try it and see what happens so here's some data from a very large credit-card company whose name unfortunately I can't tell you I can tell you what it rhymes with and maybe you can guess that I can't actually do that either so this credit card company first they ran pure-play acquisition marketing so like please sign up for our credit cards please please please please please that had about a point two percent conversion rate then they tried something different then they tried to mix brand messaging into the acquisition campaign so here's what our brand is all about here's how we position ourselves against our competitors please buy a credit card those things were sequenced together and what happened is they had a 1.2 percent conversion rate so this is a 6x lift if you're spending millions of dollars a quarter this really adds up very quickly so what you start to see as you get better results doing brand and acquisition together than doing them in isolation weed since replicated this study we're doing it for clients and tech finance and HR and you see the same time and time again and by the way this was not like sophisticated sequential remarketing or anything it was dead simple it was just a campaign running that had brand messaging and acquisition running at the same time so I think to me most people in this country don't know about this IPA research it's kind of a big deal in Europe increasingly in Asia a lot of people we talked to haven't read it which just makes sense because frankly it's incredibly dense and boring but it's also incredibly important and I think the clients who quickly realize that they've over indexed on lead gen and that's what they and all their competitors are doing and who kind of pivot to more of a brand heavy approach a 60 or 70 percent weighting towards brand those are the people who will win in the market basically so are we saying lead generation is overrated John or is there yeah I mean I think I think ironically we talk about brand all the time we talk about it's so commonly there one thinks that they know what it is and why it's important yet all the data actually shows that people value brands less and less and less despite the fact that brands are largely what make big companies really profitable so I would say yes brand is dramatically undervalued I think to me it's you know this idea around being contrarian weirdly to over invest in bran is it deeply contrarian idea right now given the broader I suppose trends in the market so I think it's a huge opportunity and and when they require you do but you do need to liege it has a very clear language around it which is like I get a lead and if it's qualified or not and then it becomes as lifetime value and there's some cash flows attached to it we've got to think a little bit harder about if there's a lead generation that what does brand generation look like I think that's the opportunity for you know I think smart contrarian markers to make a big impact in the industry I think there's also the IPA research is b2b and b2c they don't break it out separately I think the big open question is what does this split look like in b2b and I think there's an argument to be made that in marketing in a b2b organization you have marketing and you sales who is very worried about driving short term sales sales people right that's what salespeople worry about we get paid on a quarterly basis we're very interested in closing deals right now what salespeople are less interested in but is equally important is who's closing a deal a year or three years from now so where I'm going with this is we talked a lot about marketing and sales alignment that's a very hot topic these days but I think if that just means marketing should do exactly what sales does which is try to drive short-term results it's not necessarily as helpful in fact it's arguably duplicative versus marketing being focused on long-term sales growth and sales being focused on short-term sales growth and that's not to say you shouldn't do lead gen I'm sure it helps boost the efficiency or effectiveness of the short term stuff but it's to say that if you're missing the brand piece then essentially no one at your company is worrying about if the company will be around in three years that's something marketer feast on that food yeah so we've talked about b2b and b2c does do you think that this holds across industries or do you think there's a limitation for that I mean I think it clearly does and what I think is interesting about this is that any marketer if you ask marketer hair.you data-driven every mark like yeah of course I'm data-driven yeah yeah for sure updated proven then you go those show them the data and then they ignore the data so I think it's actually a really interesting question about how people use data and what they use data for because when we think about you know what's the most robust across industry and across time data set we can think of it would be this or it would be the work that Byron sharp and Coe have done down in Australia with Aaron Burr bass Institute all the data shows that across industry and overtime this is the way to structure campaigns to be effective in the short and long run yet very few companies actually do this so how should people get started so you said short term long term how do people marketers start using this well I think you have to understand number one everyone is doing lead generation in a very specific way I think people need our structure to understand what is brand generation as we talked about earlier so I would say listen we understand lead generation we actually don't understand brand nearly as well as we do we think we do I want to go understand what is our brand so for example you go back to Tropicana really the brand at its core is the name it is the orange with the straw understand the distinct elements that are core to your brand just go talk to your customers and understand hey when you think about buying from us you know what do you think about so for LinkedIn like it's the I n right there right is that the color blue is it the more productive and successful identify what your brand actually stands for figure out how many people know you for that and then how unique it is to you so it's not like blue is also Facebook right and that's not not a good thing so unique to you everyone knows it there's actually a really good matrix you can get called the distinctive asset matrix which breaks this down for you but understand your brand and then start to measure that over time and then you can sort of compliment your lead generation with your brand generation but I think it starts with just understanding where you are taking inventory right and then mapping out a plan over a couple of years to start measuring brand at some point you're measuring brand and you're measuring leads that feels very balanced that feels like an approach for the long run and it feels like an approach that ultimately would make somebody a CMO which I think ya all care about being in this room I think branding also sort of needs to be rebranded if I may so I think it's a sort of fluffy word if you say it – like a CFO there brain kind of switches off like oh god this person's talking about brand again it's really framing it as long-term sales growth versus short-term sales growth I think is sort of a better route to do it like I think people need to understand that brand isn't some kind of ethereal magical thing it's a way that you make money it's a way that allows you to charge premium prices it drives profitability and that people who are overweight 'add towards short-term growth don't perform as well as people were weighted towards long term growth so I think Legion marketers have done an incredible job talking the language of Finance and business talking about leads and ROI and brand marketers need to just learn to do that as well it's more difficult but there are ways of explaining that if you can you know shift consideration 10% you get X percent uplift and profitability and we need to get kind of fluent in that conversation quickly I think that's one of the challenges is the measurement side of things I mean we're still doing like 1980s lift studies what do you think about measurement is there a better way to look at branding yeah well the eighties were great and a lot of great ideas matey's brinnlitz thought it was one of them but I don't know the tough thing is the more we learn about measurement the War II realized basically how deeply flawed all measurement solutions are I mean brand impact studies are kind of funny example there's an amazing book out right now called how not to plan which is actually by these eight IPA researchers and Sarah Carter and one thing they talk about is brand impact study so if you give a brand impact study to you tie and I say what's your perception of LinkedIn and you say oh I love LinkedIn you know my awareness is 80 percent whatever if I give you that same exact survey a week later your answers are completely different so in other words it's actually extremely difficult to measure and quantify perceptions so I think I've started to sort of think about it as a as a spectrum on the one end you have econometric modeling which is what all of this research is based on so actually trying to understand you know what kind of sales uplift you get from spending money on marketing very complicated it's very quantitative mathematical that's one way to do it and I'm sure it's pretty flawed on the other hand you have measuring nothing and I actually think that you should be doing one of those two things you should be doing econometrics modelling or you should essentially be measuring nothing because it's all these kind of limbo in between things like brand impact studies and CTR that's where all the problems arise imagine for a second that you couldn't measure marketing at all what would you do you basically go read a bunch of books about how marketing actually works the fundamentals of how you shift people's perceptions and you would do those things you would follow those best practices to give yourself the kind of highest probability of succeeding because we have metrics a lot of us don't bother to kind of read the books and the textbooks but in many ways we'd be better off doing that and not measuring anything then kind of you know optimizing our CTR on a minute-by-minute basis or whatever it is we're doing marketers have no memory it turns out like I bet most people here don't have the ability to go and say what was my top marketing campaign in the last five years right and like here's the metric here's what it is I go look it up the sequel query it comes up and it says it was this thing three years ago so we always just start doing new things that come to mind we're never looking at old things that works but again that's contra everything that Netflix would do everything that Disney would do so you really do need to think about what is working can I do that more and more and more like that's how I would start with measurement actually right now we're really trying to think this through our food for thought indeed yeah it just doesn't have so much food so no fall yes yes delicious indeed so now you need to move to our next topic which happens to be our speed round overrated Under reading lightning trends like lightning round are you ready are you both ready for this we're ready so how is it going so here's how it works I'm gonna name a trend in marketing you're gonna say whether that trend is overrated and underrated we should probably give some context as to why all right spend a little time on each one are you ready for the first one born ready tie okay hit me personalization very overrated or underrated yeah I'm gonna go with grotesquely overrated will be my choice on this one personalization I think might be the biggest trend in marketing right now every conference we go to people are talking about personalization I really have three pretty pretty big gripes with the idea of personalization the first is just basically the ethics of it so when I see marketers say hey we want to understand literally everything there is to know about tie what she reads what she buys her hopes her dreams then we're gonna design creative specific to those hopes and dreams well does the customer want you to have all of that information in many cases no they might be okay with you having a very broad understanding of who they are but the more minut it gets the more scary it becomes to people like Minority Report was supposed to be a dystopia it wasn't supposed to be a utopia or like a guide to building products that pop up in stores and know everything you've done with your life so first there's the ethics question usually a good place to start with ethics so arguably you shouldn't but then the second problem is that you can't really do personalization this is the sort of cognitive dissonance in marketing that really confuses me so if you ask most marketers I saw a study recently only 12% of b2b marketers think they have good data they have high quality data so if you only have 12 percent confidence in your data then how on earth are you going to deliver highly personalized relevant experiences across the reaches of the Internet right we're just not there we don't have the totalitarian surveillance state that we're trying to build right so we need to be realistic about that but then there's places where okay maybe it doesn't raise any ethical issues maybe the data is really good I would argue LinkedIn has very good data you could hypothetically hyper target you know a cio in Jakarta with some relevant information then you get to the third fatal flaw in personalization which is that it sort of misunderstands how marketing works specifically how fame works so let's go back to Hollywood we love the Hollywood metaphor Hollywood is basically making in personalized creative right now that's how they're making all this money they say what's a cultural myth that works in every market in the world oh it's superheroes it's Thor we can run that in the u.s. we can run that in China we can run it in ten years we can run it 20 years ago right so they're looking for things that work broadly for everyone that are impersonal eyes Pixar Pixar movies are good for the grown-ups they're good for the kids both of them love them right so they're not trying to design personalized experiences for specific people they're trying to be broadly relevant and what happens when you're broadly relevant is that you get virality right because if I get a piece of content and it's great and it's broadly relevant I can share it with Ty I can share it with John if it's hyper personalized to me Peter from the Upper West Side in Manhattan it's not necessarily gonna be relevant to everyone else on the planet so you basically limit the effectiveness or the possibility for any viral pass along by being personalized so we have more in common than you think I know I think we both would like the same creative that also just doesn't pass the simple test as we call it right marketers have limited time limited resources both in people and money every marketer we talked to says I don't have enough time energy people to do what I need to do but now you're supposed to start running a thousand or million pieces of creative it just doesn't make any sense it's also flawed fundamentally we should define segments based on what people have in common not what they have indifferent because the truth is most of your people that are trying to buy something are probably buying for the same reasons right like Bezos is famous for always talking about like it's not the difference is it's the commonalities right well people are always gonna want the future is gonna be things that like are very obvious like more convenience more selection better prices your buyers are probably the same they want a core set of things is probably two three things max so you just need to focus on the two three things you don't need a million different understandings you need to have two to three understandings you need to target them with very specific positioning that's just really good segmentation targeting positioning marketing that has always worked will continue to work and I mean the data in general like I think LinkedIn has great data I think data he's really good it's just if the date is so good why aren't more marketers being successful why aren't CMO ten years longer why don't we have bigger budgets not smaller budgets so in theory it all makes sense just when you go actually look at what's going on it isn't working out in the way that I think some of the vendors would tell you it yeah there's like there's like a Zen problem here which is that the more personalized you try to be the less relevant you are right you can be relevant without being personalized if you set the expectation that I'm gonna know you Thai at an incredibly deep intimate level and then serve you exactly the right creative that you were always hoping to see the expectation becomes very high and I almost always under deliver that's what you see so a lot of rings rights a lot of work a lot of only 50% of ads online are considered relevant by consumers we are so got it this is very counter to the idea that we want to target Brad in Kentucky we're targeting Brad's yeah Brad's overall all of the brands in Jakarta there's Brad's in New York and let's try to be relevant to all Brad's tons of Brad's in Jakarta for sure so let's get to the next overrated underrated test and learn strategies overrated or underrated yeah we think they are dramatically overrated I think really what that means is it's shorthand for kind of like we're gonna make a bunch of really small bets to never try to do anything big never try to actually be effective like the starting place for this should be that most marketing never actually reaches its audience almost all marketing fails right the only way really to succeed to cut through is to make is to do a lot of the research we're talkin wonder Stan what's worked in the past you know focused on outreach / engagement not hyper targeting right reach a lot of people with a big idea that's actually what's gonna break through and Justin learns doesn't align umber one a lot of the decisions that might be made from test and learn the time horizon is too short so you run like a very simple test it's probably not statistically significant so you can't trust it in the first place and number two even if you did run a test you should run the test again make sure that she's a real idea but then you have to go big and we're the most competitive marketing environment would ever seen in the history of the world and the only ideas that that really cut through a big ideas and it gets back to Disney they kept gets back to Batman I mean all these big ideas that cut through there are enormous bets that are made they're not small that's they're enormous bets that are made there you're not talking about whether testin learn is a valid thing to do it's the application of it is that it's that the key takeaway is that scale matters and that some things can't be tested at a small scale they can be tested in a big scale but not a small scale there's another book about this our second book recommendation it's called blockbusters by Anita Albers say who's a professor at Harvard opening chapter of blockbusters is about it's a tale of two strategies it's a test and learn strategy and a big bet strategy so on the one hand you have this guy alan horne who ran warner brothers on the other side you have this guy jeff zucker who ran NBC alan horne decided to basically break the bank spending an insane amount of money on things like batman and harry potter jeff zucker decided he wanted to do a test and learn strategy where he kind of spreads the money thin makes a lot of little bets what happens is Warner Brothers becomes the most profitable studio in history Horne gets promoted to run Disney NBC drops from first place in television to fourth Jeff Zucker gets fired so what happened after that is that basically the block butters bless their strategy we're making huge bets on very few assets went on to eat all other industries so anyone who makes content whether it's movies television music even tech you see it's all about the big bets that's where the big returns come from and it's for the reason Jon said it's that it is so insanely competitive that your small bets will just never break through it's true that big bets are also risky because sometimes there's flops but actually it's far less risky than only making small bets because small bets are basically guaranteed failure versus big bets open up the possibility for some big returns I think marketers have to kind of reframe where the real risk is and often the risk isn't being risk averse it's not in making big bets on huge franchise risk no reward no is the risk actually yeah I mean in general there's this idea called Pareto's principle the 8020 rule hmmm I think if you go look at your marketing you'll find that holds true for you as well right there's probably something you do that is more valuable than everything else that you do and you define the one thing that creates all that value you need to go bigger and bigger and bigger every year on it in the same way that Star Wars gets bigger and bigger and bigger every year I mean Disney's doing fewer and fewer movies not more and more movies right so it's about having real extreme focus right it's about doing that thing with focus annually and it's about doing it as big as possible because it's just the only way really to create value and I think test and learn people just have interpreted that as like kind of like it's not really even test because the tests aren't significant and there's done in a small scale that it's never gonna actually like there's nothing worth learning great so what we're gonna do we definitely want to be able to take some questions we're gonna try to do two more overrated underrated so be thinking about what questions you have from our live studio audience and also on the chat and we'll get to as many as those as we can so the next overrated underrated is thought leadership overrated or underrated it's underrated amen deeply underrated again I mean we have a really good piece of research on this from Edelman that just shows that thought leadership right it's generally thought of as a brand building exercise that builds some trust with your customers and does build trust but it actually is what drives sales as well it's another place where brand actually is what's responsible for sales in some respects more than even sales is and so the idea is that it helps you get into the you know Biscay build trust with your customers helps you get into consideration set so we get shortlisted you know final three helps you close the deal thought leadership and critically because people who are making the decisions often it's a very risky decision for them right if you buy the wrong cloud computing solution maybe your website crashes your email crashes the entire company loses its productivity so you really want to make the right decision you look awful that way right so we're like really good thought leadership helps you understand like oh if I work with Microsoft and Azure like it's gonna be good they're gonna take care of me it's gonna be great and because it's a risky decision the interesting thing is father ship actually allows you to charge premium pricing as well people buy you on the basis of thought leadership it's a very profitable way to be okay so brand purpose overrated or underrated yeah brand purpose is the another thing we keep hearing about every minute of every day and I'm gonna have to go with overrated surprisingly I know it's tough to take a contrarian take but I think brand purpose there's just a fundamental misunderstanding here of who brand purpose is for if you say we work at a great company we're doing good in the world that's very important internally for employees people generally want to work at companies that are doing good in the world the people who don't really care are the customers they don't need to hear about it right so there's some research that says oh if you ask people would they rather buy from a company that's doing good in the world or a company that's doing horrible things in the world surprisingly 90% of people would rather buy from good companies and people use that to think that that's how we have to go to market by telling everyone what a great company we are but it's just not necessarily interesting or relevant to the customer they don't really care and I think we're not saying don't do good in the world by all means do good in the world you know don't destroy the environment pay men and women equally it's just that you don't necessarily have to put that in your advertising you should do it because it's the right thing to do as a positioning it just becomes incredibly flimsy mark Ritson who we love just makes this point very well which is that it's just the basis for very weak positioning if all of us are making the world a better place then essentially you have no competitive differentiation they're better to talk about sort of some more emotional benefits maybe then this kind of like super abstract yeah everybody's saving the earth that should be the foundation exactly do good right okay one more overrated underrated and then we'll go to questions from the audience and that is click-through rate overrated or underrated is your baby yeah click-through rate is like the only thing that makes me think maybe I'm insane or on crazy pills or something click-through rate yeah sorry there's other things but that's like the big red flag for me that maybe I've gone insane so all of our clients are still measuring click-through rate if you tell them it's a terrible idea they'll always agree with you and then they'll ask you what their click-through rate is right and cut you from the media plan if your click-through rate isn't height up some very smart people over the past 10 years or so have proven in excruciating empirical detail that click-through rate is a completely meaningless metric it doesn't correlate with awareness it doesn't even correlate at the bottom of the funnel with the actual conversions so it's sort of a limbo indicator that doesn't track with anything that's been confirmed by Nielsen it's been confirmed literally a hundred different ways John and I I think have an even more contrarian take which is that click-through rate is actually a negative indicator if you have a very high click-through rate you're probably doing something wrong and that's because number one it's a sign of AD fraud the people who click on things the most frequently tend to be not people at all they tend to be robots so in many cases it's a real warning sign that you're not reaching quality audiences also if you think about again what makes branding work what makes branding work as high frequency showing someone the same thing over and over again that's what makes click-through rates start to go down so people who are optimizing for click-through rate make sure they cap their frequency at say two ads per person and then that person never remembers what the ad was there's no brand impact so for branding it can really be pretty kind of disastrous right I'd say you shouldn't I mean you should never look at click-through rate for brand name if 60 percent of marketing is supposed to be branding and 40 percent supposed to be beads obviously a click has to happen for there to be a lead at some point though there's old conversation around retargeting you're just catching people that you would have already gotten anyways but actually doesn't make sense but the idea of branding alone like you're not you shouldn't be looking at click the rates it doesn't matter doesn't correlate with success and that's the majority of a lot of the marketing we do like there you should be thinking more about like nobody cares about CPM is ever just cares about CPC so that's a pure CPM thing right if it's in the branding world yeah the clicks don't matter I get it that we need to measure something totally get that we need to deliver reporting be very awkward if we didn't have any reporting for our clients but there are metrics that actually correlate with things and the biggest one which has been hugely neglected and criticized over the years is reach that same IPA research we're showing you right now what it says the number one biggest predictor of effectiveness is how many potential customers you reached what you're qualified reach is against the category that correlates with profitability market share pricing power and reach is just as trackable right so I think we need to start thinking about metrics that matter and that are also trackable versus things that either don't correlate or negatively correlate with what we're trying to we should we're not gonna get to it explicitly but I'm about to get to it explicitly the idea of engagement versus reach is an important conversation that needs to happen and I think in some respects you'll tell me I'm being too extreme but you should all be maintained reach maximalists not engagement Maximus right most big brands in the world are built in a world where engagement was never possible right there was TV there was radio there was outdoor right yeah there's these enormous brands so the idea that you need engagement in order to build a brand just doesn't make any sense because it's not how brands have been built if there's so much conversation around engagement I mean a lot of these algorithms that you know generate clicks essentially they just optimize to the same hundred people who click a lot right and in fact you want to reach a lot of people that's how you grow bigger brands become bigger when they get more customers not when they get the exact same group of customers so I think Reach is really important I think engagement doesn't matter nearly as much we would call it relevant reach obviously because you don't want to reach people and b2b especially that don't matter to your brand but I mean Reach is something that people don't report on that they should report on it should be unique reach as well not sort of duplicate of reach but it's it's undervalued thank you for asking if it's undervalued or not I totally agree it's undervalued reach maximal is reach maximal is you think metrics reach maybe customer lifetime value things that are deeper you can get a lot understanding of how sure go shallow or go deep the danger is going somewhere in between where you get these limbo metrics that end up killing it's also like long and short right a lot of these things are taking a longer view like how many people that I reach in a nine month period right that would be a better way to think about it like did somebody click today right it's just long it's a behavior metric tells you about how your audience is interacting but it's not really telling you real business value how am i driving that yep got it okay let's get to some questions from the audience if you do have a question feel free to queue up at the mic and we'll start with a question from the stream for now while we're waiting for folks to queue up and the question is from Katina and it's I love data but I fear being bound by data how do you watch out for that signal-to-noise yeah we've got a trend for you there's an amazing study so most data is not good day right there's actually a lot of research that shows most of these programmatic sites that claim you'll be able to find people very precisely they can't even guess if you're a man or a woman correctly that's the simplest thing to do so you can literally flip a coin and get just as good data but even if you had good data it turns out having more data is not necessarily a good thing it was a very famous study they worked with professional horse-racing gamblers they gave them different types of data center here are three pieces of data and they said we're gonna give you this data one tell you how confident you are you can predict what horses are gonna win or not it's what they found is the more data they gave you where the horse gamblers the more confident they became with three pieces of data they were pretty confident they did pretty well with five pieces of data they got way more confident but they did worse with seven pieces of data even more coffin even worse results so the idea is the more data you get actually the worst results you often get because we think of data as being purely signal like I get amazing signal because I have more data I make better decisions most of the research shows that the more data you get usually had a lot more noise as well and so your results go down as a result so there's some fine the practical application of this is to check data less frequently because what the signal-to-noise ratio proves is that the more frequently you check data the more noise you get proportional to signal so everyone knows this with stocks right people tell you not to check your stock portfolio every day because it looks like this in the short term and then it looks like this in the long term right and if you make decisions based on the noise you end up making the wrong decisions so a lot of times I'm in meetings where we'll say hey here's this amazing data we can get you how often do you want it the client will say you know every 24 hours would be great I'd love this data the actual answer should be like once a year or once every six months the bigger the data set the less frequently you check it the more signal you'll get that you can really use to make a decision so it's tough but we need to kind of wean ourselves off data all the time and move into a world more kind of rationed there's a funny story about this which I think I'll get mostly right now off to correct me where I'm wrong that fidelity looked at top performing portfolios financially they're trying to figure forming portfolios what do they have in common who are these these mythical people that outperform the market so so so handsome what they found is that these there was a certain group of people that really outperformed the market and those people were dead and so they never they never changed their portfolio they weren't like reading the news every day like the markets crashing the markets crashing I got to sell sell sell is they were dead and they had incredibly high performing okay so let's take a question here you are lively and tell us your names yes my name is Sarah I don't want to die I have like a summarized version of that I've been trying to find the in-depth study would you be able to share that yeah yeah just Google marketing effectiveness in the digital era that's the most recent one okay they're kind of refreshing it all the time and they'll come out with a new one it's on the top but that's okay here's my question and it's on the last thing about measurement you were just talking about with reach yep and you said that Reach is just as easy to track as click-through rate mm-hmm I'm wondering if you know of a secret that I don't know so I work in a media agency and so we care a lot about reach I agree with you 100% on the meaningless like the front end metrics of media aren't as meaningful or sometimes even completely meaningless I would argue that VCR and video is a little bit more meaningful but anyway Reach is really an important number to track especially unduplicated reach against our target audience but in a world where we're running omni-channel media plans across TV digital out of home and then within digital we have while Gardens there isn't really a way to measure reach across an entire audience is there I guess that's kind of my question yeah totally fair I suppose us prone to hyperbole perhaps saying it was easier to measure than click-through rate obviously yes the problem is it's the same thing with clicks you don't know if the clicks are good or bad and it's tough to know if the impressions are good or bad were they viewable did you reach the right people in target but I think the her problem is that nobody's even asking that question anymore because we're all over here in like engagement clickthrough land and there's not as much innovation taking place on how can I systematically figure out how many people I'm reaching so first of all what the IPA study says and it's incredibly simple kind of algorithm it's basically you need to know your market share and then your share of voice needs to be higher than your market share and if your share of voice is higher than your market share your brand tends to grow if it's below that it tends to shrink so that's a kind of metric of figuring out what your reach should even be in the first place the question of is it good or bad impressions I agree that's very tough I don't have a simple solution to that I think we've seen panel based companies like there's a company called research now who we've worked with who says here's all the impressions I serve them on many different sites and now I'm gonna convene a panel to figure out how much was in audience reach against these players and I'm gonna do that and so again I think there will be more growth in that space and more innovation if we start asking tough questions about reach and impressions today we're over here and like click-through rate la-la-land and that's sort of the problem so we are rapidly running out of time and we have so many great questions so what we can't compare to as a team is a reach out looking at the question definitely reach out connect with us we're happy to answer questions and we can actually create content to help address some of the questions you have as well so I want to thank both of my wonderful colleagues here you're amazing thank you and also our studio audience and those of you on the stream as well for being awesome happy holidays to everyone if you want to learn more about our b2b trends we do have a microsite if you search for b2b trends LinkedIn you will find it so we definitely encourage you to check that out we have a survey let us know what you thought what we can do in the future in 2019 and we believe that these best practices we covered can give you an edge that is if you're brave enough to take on a contrarian position so thank you so much everyone and we look forward to seeing you at the next live with marketers in the coming year so let's give ourselves

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