Falling Freetown + Urban Nomads – Cities, Tension and Urban Planning

Falling Freetown + Urban Nomads – Cities, Tension and Urban Planning



I'd like to start off with the question for you Fenian because you went there right after the disaster happened and then you being back and forth several times so what what has happened since the disasters is Freetown in any way better prepared now should this happen again well thanks the modern landslide happened in August last year I personally haven't been back to see renew yet because of commitments here and it's very expensive to go home but I'm in close touch with a lot of victims and from what I gather things have really gone from bad to worse and it's really it's sad to see because a lot of victims are not in any help if anything the whole country is wondering where the hundreds of millions that was raised and donated by countries organizations have gone I haven't been back yet but I am in close communication with with some of the victims I don't know if you want me to there are so many factors that caused this landslide but for me predominantly it comes to humans and the way the country is managed and the way the country's wrong a lot of these people are very very poor or very poor they're living on the margins of society and they don't have places to go in like the Mogul of the video we saw normal sweet episode Mongolia it's because they're poor in the provinces they all flock into every town so three times is incredibly overcrowded and they come in hundreds and there is no policy no one actually keeps track of these people there's no disparities of law and order in this area and unfortunately and so these people come and they buy these plots of land I had planted so many on the 22nd of August and then the other ones have happened on the 14th so I was debating whether I should go back or not my mom was like don't go it could happen again and the place is still flooded and but I just thought I'm still gonna go because if something this happens I might just have another girl just turning my back on my people you can't just attend to situations when it's convenient so I raised funds and I went to Sarah Mia I met these people and their stories are horrendous before I traveled I heard in the news that this was worse than even Ebola amazed I was wondering how could it be worse than Ebola it's just not possible but this flooding outside if a flood but I say landslides / sinkhole because what actually happened was not what we what was first reported about loved said it was a lot more sinister because like a gentleman said I met Vincent told me that they had three barrels and it's like a gram quite literally opened and swallowed it's all at how this is all her family lism because his people look poor they're leaving nine members of family in a small Shack mom sister husband children and when this happened it wiped them all out so it was just it was extraordinary and and the people really they received no help I met a gentleman who must cut all over his body I mean you think he had vitiligo but it's all the stones that had knocked his skin off and and he was at the hospital and they were saying that they were actually charging them to buy medicine and if they couldn't buy the medicine then they're not looked after and he discharged himself from hospital and I met him the following day it's it's very difficult to blame for people but it comes from the government because what we found out is that the President himself has a house in that same area actually saw it myself be guided by soldiers you're not allowed to take pictures and and we found that from the myth from the Minister of land and planning and ministers in the government they sold this one town lot which is about as big as maybe about half the size of this room to all these people who were desperate so they sold all this piece of land knowing what the dangers were they did not monitor it it was all a money-making thing and then when this happened it was quick to say oh we told these people not to build here not to build here but you saw them the land you have a house here and when I left derringer and I spent three weeks there when I left it was really heartbreaking because I managed there is a little bit of money and I wish I could do more but these people were almost hanging onto my skirt and because they're not they weren't getting in hell there have been thrown out of the pans the people who are put in charge of the calves but then bringing their entities from the villages all the durations so we would see bags of rice mattresses as far as 35 miles out of Freetown and then the real victims weren't getting the health it's I mean I could I could go and I'll hold on for someone else but um yeah it was like for example under that the gentleman that I met was a look on Taylor and he has a workshop in the mortar Miriam I watts although streets and I actually recognize the gentleman in the fable a very small community I mean it's a very small community and they all know each other they all know each have will sit my drink in the streets you know fires are always it's a very you know a couple comments but they all know each other and this Taylor that I met he lost his wife and these three or daughter in the flood on one side he has his workshop in the Mortimer area and he spends nights there because you know when orders come you want to make the most of it you don't know when good nor the orders of his betters tell us to stay overnight and that night of the flood and I'm fine he didn't go home and that was the last I saw his wife it wiped out in one-third so sinister he's the one I made this past if I bring it with me had made and he did it with such diligence and hopes for the future and it's just great to raise awareness of these issues but these are real people sorry not at all I think this is really interesting and very moving as well I think the the fact that people search all that amount of resilience on them in such dire circumstances it's very important to always bear that in mind my next question is for Sarah and I mean you're you're you worked on these issues what happens in those in former human settlements or slums as they're commonly known you work on these issues all the time and how would you say how can a city like free tongue even prevent such a disaster from happening in the future or a city like Lombard cope with people are coming all the time is it is it just a question of throwing a lot of development money at it I suppose not but how can we think about finding sustainable solutions thank you thank you Euphemia that was a really touching opening to this conversation I guess I'm going to have some very bad panel etiquette and challenge the premise of your question I hope you'll forgive me through something that came through to me then from and not so much from the film's production itself but from some of the individuals in the film was this story that urban growth is bad to 2050 were expected to have urban areas around the world grow by 2.5 billion people 90% of that is going to be in lower middle-income countries particularly in Africa and Asia and people are just terrified at that prospect there's this vision of hordes of people moving to urban areas and especially places like Freetown will invert all that are already struggling to or basic services infrastructure I'm I guess I just want to kind of flip that on its head a bit urban population growth is one of the biggest opportunities that we have to tackle poverty to accelerate economic development I'm even to deliver on some if not all of our sustainability goals so economically you know who here lives in a city we all live in cities because the cities of great places right that places where there's job opportunities where there's cultural opportunities you know if you look at women in Africa or moving to cities if they were to stay in rural areas they would not be able to occur all over land and property through traditional paths but if you move to cities you could take part in markets and so you have a chance to accumulate assets even if you don't have a husband or if you're you know a husband is not very generous and putting your name under things I think so I think it's really important that we embrace the shift from rural to urban context as this opportunity to help meet some of these goals that we're all working towards but of course the process of doing this is really complex and I think we saw that from these films today where the challenge of people moving from livelihoods that have been part of their family for generations or people moving to places where there's not basic services infrastructure in place close this really personal human challenge particularly when there's disasters whether immediate disasters like a landslide or a long-term disaster like air pollution so the challenge then is not how do we slow people moving to cities but how do we get those cities bright money is a part of it there's a financing gap in terms of urban infrastructure of up to about 2.3 trillion every year and governments are part of the answer but they're not the whole answer you know if you were to take all of the government infrastructure investment of developing countries and all of the a budgets from developed countries it would still not cover that 2.3 trillion so a lot of it is about finding that money in finding community your household or private investment but as Euphemia told us sometimes you could throw all the money at the problem and it doesn't reach the people on the ground whether that's badly managed or badly managed tax systems and so governance as I can stub it off – I'm coming back to agree with your premise of your question like this good interviewee how can you get particularly local governments where the citizens who live in cities can't influence their behavior all them to account and make sure that the money that they pay in taxes or that is given to them by international donors and national governments is spent in ways that protects them from risks and helps make these really urgent needs like clean water sanitation and protecting them from hazards such as landslides I mean this is versus if we embrace cities of the opportunities for roles I think there are also opportunities in rural areas for people who actually don't want to migrate I think in the mongoliad it was quite clear that some of the younger people really wanted to go to the city but others went because they had no choice so what needs to happen in rural areas in villages to make people stay there I mean I thought that's really really good question but I wanted to pick up on us I was saying about urbanization even opportunity you're not just challenging that some strange Society works particular on world areas but also just pointing out that rule third of migration is is not actually currently the main source of urban growth and it's still an important source but it's no longer the main source of that but there is there is this inherent fear of people flocking to cities and actually the the number of countries the percentage of countries that have put in in place policies to try to stop that which is slow it as increased it went up from about 30 you know thirty nine forty percent of countries 1996 to 80% in 2013 but largely they'd actually been really ineffective so I think we've got to think about that as well they've given ineffective and many of these policies have actually increased the costs and the danger to migrants moving to to urban areas that that's not to say that we shouldn't put in any in anything in place to safeguard the most vulnerable people moving or to encourage people to stay and I guess I mean there the Mongolia film showed that there is definite room for systemic support and actually greater regulation by the government to promote sustainable land management and there's a systematic because the the example given of support was here today and here's a bag of fodder and that's going to be quite sporadic but actually building the resilience of you know herders and regulating the the intensity of grazing it's a no brainer I think so they they seem to be tripping missed there and there was certainly something coming through from the government officials that we've moved from socialism to the sort of rampant free market economy and very divided opinion on whether that's the right thing and but a sense of maybe that's going to be moved back to you a more regulated market economy so I think that that is but that is wondering but actually I would like to think about how to make the most of migration to improve life in rural areas because again in the Mongolia film there is a sort of a binary picture put forward we've got two separate cultures in reality there's the the linkages between urban rural areas are much much stronger and people migrate to urban areas often are still going back to their villages and sending money back and that money can be incredibly important as of funds for investments you know some of it suspensions of just direct consumption but some of that is invested in and housing in irrigation archie school fees as well to improve education so i would actually argue that there is a very sort of easy thing that the government could do to facilitate those remittances reduce the cost of those remittances facilitate collective remittances remittances back where many countries in Africa that's shown to be invested in social infrastructure for communities rural areas making life like work better for people I mean if you look at international remittances on average to send $200 from the African Diaspora back to Africa it's 12 percent commission and the cost of internal remittances are much the same but if you look at that the volume of remittances I mean internationally it's about four hundred and thirty billion dollars that's more than overseas development assistance we don't have you know really good figures for work for many countries but if you look at China internal remittances were thirty billion dollars so that's a huge source of income for improving life in rural areas and you know making it bit more attractive for people to stay but I would also say that you need to have better information about who is migrating of where from so you can have targeted intervention because some of the herders in Mongolia we're doing really well I mean they were saying the Richard Hosey movement and the overall livestock they said it had tripled I'm not sure if it was actually the film but actually live in the background information it's it's tripled over the last ten years so even though if there are some people have been losing losing their herds and losing their livelihoods there were a number of livestock has that has increased so some people are already benefiting and wanting to stand were lawyers for that so thinking about who is actually migrating who of those people are really vulnerable and need to have safeguards but in case um how to make that that process a smoother and safer one which works backwards and then to the rural areas Thank You Arthur I think that's an important point is where the lack of good data good information about who is migrating who arrives in the city and and how do these people make a living is very important to get to get a better handle on how to make this work better Charles so cities have a lot of problems we've heard about that but they're also centers of energy and creativity given all the pressures and cities face today considered speak creative and economic engines and I can really work to become the source for a better world or to get others more equitable that gives people the opportunity to have good housing decent jobs all the things we already want for ourselves and our children and future generations well there's so many questions wrapped up in that I mean obviously cities accelerators of opportunity and all the Latin obviously that's where most wealth is created but also because most people are there of course but I think when you loop around your questions a bit and if you tell you can deal I you of everything obviously we know that what happens elsewhere shapes what's happened here and if you take that eagle-eye you can see that there's a vast fragility occurring and the systems of management and organization and politics simply can't cope with the excess collecting range of wicked problems and then again because places and people are becoming overwhelmed I mean we all know that the world is turning to its dark a face apprehension is in the air a ghost is one of rising in anxiety and it feels like viber in 1929 actually when you think about the terms of the potential tensions so Wayne also the great and disappears and people talk about globalists and Patriots and divide the world and these sort of things and we see either things like brexit Trump of all of these other things that are happening a lot of that is to do with for example also the immersive effects of digitization which is obviously at one hand of wonderful on the other hand you know something which I did exciting of course is another thought others find it scary but one thing that is never mentioned is because I'm relatively old when I was born there were two point two billion people on the earth now that we're about to hit seven point nine now it's just ponder that okay what that means okay wondering what that means is that every half child less we have and the continent with the greatest birth rate is Africa four point four per person which means that Nigeria will become larger than the America in terms of population relatively shortly so one point less child means we can stabilize where we are but our strands going it's going to 11 billion and when you were born it was popped aluminum looking at you you know three four depends how old about 31 it's going up and for me then that is partly an explanation that's why I wrote Pacific City and the nomadic world so I'll pick up the nomadic if you don't mind we're really then the big central question is where do we belong when everything is on the move the world is in motion the city is emotions completely transforming continually things are being built and rebuilt and you know whatever shards are coming up and breaking up whatever the question then is one of the zones of encounter with all these people are mostly stranger the city in essence is the place where strangers meet and the question is and there was reason to the city trading nor that's of the stuff and how would you create places of empathy when I'm not saying we should all love each other by the way but how did you create places of empathy when people are strangers to each other when they are overwhelmed now who are these nomads the nomads the they shrink into her eggs and the all of that and the Mongolia ones are shrinking but of course all these other nomads the Roma travellers there's about a million people in India who love no man she was sort of a lien on fortune tellers and things like that so there's a vast number of traditional knowing words but the modern Ivan mad is the person who comes to the Vortech City London is a vortex city sucks being bullying and sucks in a sense the ambitious and all of that burden is a matter for tech city abstinence Lisbon is becoming one the next fashionable City will be Athens because people are looking global capital is moving around and see the differences and all of that I don't want to bang on about that but anyway so they're shrinking cities and growing cities there are many shrinking cities believe it or not as growing cities in Europe and so then these young people perhaps then they're the backpack is the year out people there are six or eight million foreign students in Europe and America and China there are 130 times as many international tourists as there were 50 years ago there are expats incorporation buddy buddy buddy bar and that's about a billion people on the move moving from rural to urban areas in China 250 million to this fast movement and then the blending of the digital and the real in quotes world is creating sort of tension so it lets come to the creativity creativity the original idea was all about when people transformations how'd you get the conditions for people to think plan and act with imagination in order to create opportunities and solve problems in cities for example in Britain in Sheffield's and all of that so that's the core idea that they mean you know not to people who were artists said well cause creative work creatures in it must be me I'm sorry I'm exaggerating it took me much but obviously there may be realms of creativity and there is always been creativity from below of course because creativity is essentially than solving problems and creating opportunity so there's a vast spectrum of it and so if you're talking about focus now the big focus for me is about dealing with the intractable when the attractable are these dysfunctional places many places are becoming dysfunctional and dealing with things when the government arrangements are completely incapable polities completely incapable the blending together how these things that need to be addressed in an in an integrated way and that is such a crisis of massive proportion so of course we all know what needs to happen the habitat summit that happens every 20 years said that cities of the solution to the problems have it elements is a global national state thing but they don't have the legitimacy of in place the place where the problem is to deal with the actual solution so we know the solutions the solutions are easy when you read that habitat agenda which all says how should run cities miss sparrows point about corruption that's utter pride all of that units also one inclusive city of course somebody increases if you've drawn a link within cities we want educated cities to one stupid cities now what's a stable suit against a group about the same entities now so the question is really turning these things into reality and making the solutions have been absolutely negative no so have given in I think imagination is there one way to stand on one tiny point behind last point there's a major battle between classic democracy most things have been reinvented business models lots of stuff yeah but what hasn't been reinvented how we managed to move us gather ourselves and obviously there's that that's why you get the the crowd and isn't the pressure from Miller again when you take the helicopter view you can see vast pressures coming people to wanting to be more involved in making shaping and co-creating their places so I'll just leave it at that for a second a lot to be said for creativity in trying to solve these problems but what also resonated with me is that by the state governments have the authority to make the rules they increasingly like the legitimacy and onion imbalance that is also a huge challenge that cities in particularly face um I think we have about a bit of time left and I'm really keen to get your questions from the audience thank you so much for being here and I'm just curious about the you talked about sovereignty and governance about corporates sort of superseding some of the local governments on sustainability around planning yes we had water you have different aspects like that where corporates are not going in and investing in land where people are starving so the food is actually shipped on so I'm curious how that plays with what I mean like China buying chunks of Africa so actually that is something that is very striking in London at the moment well I don't know I'm very sorry again for pitching another athletic discipline some the Guardian has been doing some really good coverage recently around the corporatization of what seems to be public space in London but it turns out that if you call a protest there for example that the property owners and the real estate developers can go in and kick you out so I need is evacuate universal problem in vortex cities all the way through to three towns and in some of the small struggling cities I guess maybe some people on the panel can comment on this specifically to my mind is tapped into really big discussions around what is the role of the state what is the role of the private sector what is the role of civic society the more I work in this space the more I think that a lot of the un-habitat and other big forum ZAR really missing that's an exercise component there is in the UK as elsewhere there is the revolving door between the Treasury and some of the big finance organizations and big management consultancies and so on and they are trouble regulating it here with all of the apparatus of a very sophisticated state and so I think we can a very little hope for somewhere like Tanzania or Mongolia effectively governing some of that relationship unless you have an organized communities both in specific communities but a whole range of different civic structure does that hold governments to account that can collectively act through their purchasing power to influence the behavior of governments and corporations at Duke we see some really fantastic work around that in an urban context so for example organized groups of slum dwellers shackdwellers International or the Asia coalition of housing rights organized networks of street vendors and traders by working collectively these can bring together sort of from dozens to hundreds to thousands of urban residents in a single place because place is really important but also globally to raise the profile of these issues so where states are unable or unwilling to act working through civic society can be a means to strengthen their hand or strengthen our incentives to do so which is comment on me the co-operative nation of plans because that she I think I've been quite encouraged over the last five years particularly about the power of local communities to observe some power and I think there is might think we have to be a little bit careful because those they're numbers put out there about how much land has been taken over by private companies a lot of that is not actually well-founded in terms of those huge numbers in the whole towns near the audience and they come on to the sides of France to take it over so I would just caution that there's not as much happening as it seems but that's not to be complacent because they're in localized areas there are definitely definitely issues but we're doing it long term project quantifying tenure risk so it's actually saying to companies it's going to cost you this much you're not good bottom line if you have do the moment that I was right and the clunkiness were looking at there are companies we've got bankrupt or have had you know their operation stalled for many years because local communities it said enough and so I was just trying to say not again not to be complacent that I'm quite encouraged by by some of the local community power I mean I suppose another point is is can the market on its own solve the problems that are there and I suppose one has to work with and against the market small taneous li and that implies bending the market to bigger picture ethical purposes if ethical means in this context trying to reduce the division for example between Richmond or and there are interesting examples just to pick one in Germany for example in Berlin a whole series of foundation is early enough Swiss foundations are buying key tactics to take them out of the speculation particularly on things like the riverfront we would normally have a skyscraper on smart is just as an example there quite a few few of those but bureaucratic reinvention is is a massive task because the bureaucracy public bureaucracies have been run basically maligned for 30 40 years any problem that is complex clearly means these tripartite interests civic society of democracies private energy working together in some way to be run procedures you've obviously heard of things like The Living Lab to do many experiments there were 600 members around the world these entities there is the laboratory will palaver see you dad in Mexico City which is a provocation inserted of 22 people funny enough run by a filmmaker get me away from this pond which is doing 12 riding solution that wouldn't happen through the natural process of other public administration advil a South Australian has something called the 1980 of projects where citizens can say I want a problem solved in 90 days any reason why it many workers because premier had agreed that this is oh can you give empathy but to do good hierarchy but nevertheless I'm just saying there are many examples of that and just to be a bit egotistical we are organizing an event to create bureaucracy festival in Berlin on the 8th 9th and September where we're bringing together some of these solutions from from around the world anyway look that out that the point B is the public has been maligned for so long that thing called the public sector and within it there are all stupid and having into literally hundreds of them and in case service in many cities there are there's talent to be tan but they feel trapped by the systems that they operate it longer discussion since the 80s really interesting oh it was great accurate and I just went back afternoon ball one so what struck me about free time when I was like 25 years was how much bigger it was and I think the million figure is massively on a mistake but I think it's nearly three million legal male of that conflict so it's meet some restrained development and deforestation so those elders we saw enough used to be forests it was you know there's nothing about them so deforestation he's not an urban problems early on the film you know it's apparently it is a general problem with reforestation of the massive problem and government failure to regularly capacity to regulate is kind of a fundamental problem Sarah Leone's God spoke really when I asked you know how do you think though what what is it if you think you know the international community or whoever it is should be do it to fix that clock of regulation plus um I'll stop let's be honest I don't really know where to start with Sarah here it is on a completely different planet I'm a proud Sarah Union but you have the most certain to really understand how Ceridian functions there is no law and order there is no way you can complain your neighbor can decide to burn down your house because you upset them you go to the local police if he's been paid more by the neighbor that he's good friend by the neighbor your case is what they call a bath case Sarah Lyon in certificate out is a free-for-all it it breaks my heart because there's no system is no system there's so many issues that we've had in such a very small country that's incredibly rich in resources that should have never happen and it stems from the leadership through Ebola my mother's sister my aunt's my first and you can research this she was the fourth doctor officially named to die from service to Ebola so I'm directly connected to all of these issues and millions and millions was raised by the international community now this is gonna sound controversial what I'm about to say but I only wish that none of that went to the people in charge because some of that Ebola money was supposed to actually be used to help the victims as you would think in countries like this that we live in the UK someone like that lost her life she was adamant to serve her we spoke to her two days before and she as sick she started coffee and she was sick and she was serious isten to go out and he thinks somebody like that in countries like this would be not hailed but there would be celebrated they will be honored and you have doctors nurses or not their lives and this day our family not that we care about it but I can tell you firsthand that not a drop of that money has gone to any victim in Syria the governments of comment on what the people call it in Ceridian it's like coming to it's like a business now common in insa region is not governing it's a business it's a way for you to come in make some money get rich find your pension and leave and through the modern landslide as well not a penny went to these victims I've met some people with horrendous stories you see grown men crying like children so bitterly because they've lost everything and you just think where is the concern and for something like that to change honestly Sarah Leone's on the level of corruption in Syria that knowledge nest is not like anywhere in this world it is something else there's nowhere to report anything from the highest authority to the local teacher my cousin actually came over from Sarah and the daughter of my unsurpassed she's also in medicine came over last year sit with us to do a master's for a year she went back and things like envelopes and papers and things like that she eventually has to put money from her salary to buy office stationery when they're getting the reports in the budget to say the Minister of Education has given her facility that you know the owner the leader of a facility this amount of budgets to run the facility nothing they're just pocketed money and there's no regulation and I honestly don't know where to start I would really generally from the bottom of my heart like to just share shed some light on Sarah Lyon saralyn is a lost place and the international community don't really have any idea and for things like this did not happen again we need a miracle we need a complete overhaul of government we need a complete overhaul of everything because funds are coming in they're not going to the people at all and you hear from every single case honestly well why not say you know compare Sarah no no no competition no sorry compare you know 703 England this is a competition what would like it to be like but now you can't even compare Sarah young to another African country we've been left it's a forgotten nation and we need a miracle and for things to change for investments or proper management of the land of resources I honestly with me we need a miracle we firmly need international help to be honest with you at this thing that's the only way things are going to change because the people are then kept the land is owned by the government a Fenian indicates do you know how many resources of power to change the world to change up surrounded they're desperate for somewhere to live so someone says I'm going to sell you a piece of land you just dig there's no planning people took shacks off with no foundation nobody cares nobody comes to check and I know there was one minister think of copies of a before this disaster actually happened who went to the water main area and wand and tried to warn people a few good men necessarily tried to do an honest work trying to warn these people he was arrested he was arrested by officials they beat him up and I'm such a stated they beat him to death they killed him because they did not want him we have rumors of these officials apparently gluing his mouth with superglue just because he was being warning the people and trying to get the government officials to take responsibility we are somewhere we divided two vegetarian some da da da because this will happen again it definitely will happen again specific case of Sierra Leone which sounds incredibly complex but perhaps there are some lessons for the cities that have opportunities instead so the first thing that I've seen that is most effective is actually cities working together to learn from each other there are a number of city networks c40 equally UCL G where anywhere between a hundred and two thousand cities work together to share lessons on what has and hasn't worked and the reason this is so effective is that city officials can be honest with each other in a way that they can't necessarily with national governments or international donors so you can sit down with your counterpart in the Department of Transport and say I have no idea what this regulation means or we have no idea how to bundle it these property lots or I have no idea what a bus network is whatever your question might be I think this picks up on tails points about creativity and imagination because actually if you have these networks cities only need to imagine something once and have it work in one place and then cities all over the world can learn so Curitiba in Brazil and then Bogota in Colombia developed a bus rapid nap bus rapid transit network which is basically cost about ten percent as much as a metro but carries the same amount and now there are over 400 in the world by sharing are the form of our response and the Siddiq cycles we learned from Paris and Amsterdam there's lots of examples before digitization here will got stolen and then the next one will sink they still got stolen and that's where digitization when he comes in you see because now you can trap when they don't get stolen it's all about modern technology sometimes no I trust you on this you started working in there [Laughter] I'm full of sympathy for Syria but I need my crown for table and I think it's very easy for us to be complacent I was at Kensington Society last night and I used the phrase economic apartheid and referred to money laundering and they didn't want to learn the chief executive said I reject that France you know there are also completely abandoned cities I don't mean to be present mister I mean I think there's hope and I think in a funny kind of way the Google thing in the climate change in the environment you know every few hundred years that the planet has to reorganize itself given and it needs both levels you know so I'm not without hope but I do know I was there six o'clock in the morning that council wasn't you know we were we are another do we all recognize each other you know but we are we bucked the trend in city lower than the undertones of the dinosaurs any more questions I have got a question about narrative from things actually in many situations was there's more braveness so climate changes always become an excuse not to actually do what they're supposed to be to repeat was a deflection between that weakens the democracy society by another point emphasis but that seems to be the magic missiles we're from the victims actually glasses get a week you oughta see this there's Dominic's reasons for that semester dominance reasons for this rockslide is very obviously increasing so I'm trying to say that basically very narrative is a climate change actually and it's almost like mental state is that we can empower subscribe to yes about that under someone else was to please do so I guess but my understanding of both of those problems would be that you have multiple factors compounding each other so as Freetown has reached three million was the estimate I most recently heard you know that creates all of these changes in the built environment which means that perhaps Ray is not as absorbed as much there's increased demand for charcoal so you have deforestation so the slopes are more vulnerable and then you also have heavier rains so I think that there is an emphasis around a changing climate and people can see that very visibly and they don't necessarily link the changes in the climate with the changes in their landscape that exacerbates these problems I guess a lot of the work that I see and try to do at the moment is trying to identify or trying to demonstrate that particularly in cities more than in other parts of countries actions to tackle climate change or actions to pursue lower carbon path of development actually help to tackle a whole string of other problems at the same time this is a narrative that I think is not picked up often enough in sort of public thinking and political discourse either civil society or the public sector so for example having people walk cycle or use public transport is lower carbon that people don't invest in good transport systems for climate change they do it because it's a city with a good underground a good bus network safe cycle aids a better place to live it's a more productive economy it's a there's more interaction between people somewhere likable overt or they're not getting rid of and I'm getting rid of coal will be good for climate change but they're not getting rid of it for that reason and getting rid of it because the air quality is horrendous and so I think I think you're right to say that in a lot of cases people live in all cases but in a lot of cases people are outsourcing their problems it's beyond us it's a global issue the weather is changing there's nothing we can do as a local authority I think changing that narrative to say you can deliver better development by doing it in a climate compatible way offers a chance to reconcile and strengthen civil society's arms in those debates and Plasma pointed earlier about some of those networks which obviously then give confidence and courage to those people to say it's not just something we can't do anything about because you're basically saying one plus one can equal three oh sorry what I mean yeah but I think also I mean there's a real role for civil society picking up on this the narrative to make sure that you know the government structures are not sort of distracting from the core you know the core problems so that they can actually be saying no it is a bundle of factors and actually even if it is trying to change you still have something to do about it and the Mongolia one what was actually very much about the fact that there was no regulation so there was over grazing so it wasn't only climate change actually it was it was the system that was in place and I think so the society has a huge role in making sure that those different factors of water intention

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